Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue Nov 05, 2024 10:09 am +0000

The TruthBook forum will no longer accept new posts. Please continue to read, search, and enjoy all posts made to prior October 28. No login is needed now to access the valuable resource, so it is open to everyone! For more information, please click HERE.


All times are UTC - 7 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 132 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
For me personally, a long in the tooth baby boomer, reading and handling the actual physical UB yields a more rewarding and productive experience and I miss that when I choose the convenience of on-line access and study aids. This morning's read in Paper 42 ENERGY -- MIND AND MATTER and came about because as I was opening up to my bookmark I was flipping pages and the title of section 5, WAVE-ENERGY MANIFESTATIONS caught my eye and I began to read. Totally blown away!

I would like to ask if anyone would like to lead this study. I don't have any formal education in the areas of physics and cosmology and I am basically clueless. But I am also very curious regarding the physical world we see around us, its origins and history as well as its purpose in our individual eternal careers and for the human race as a whole.

I often suggest Nigel Nunn's youtube series to curious friends who know of my involvement with the UB and often ask me questions regarding the Papers. But I don't really understand the videos myself, ha ha! The main reason I recommend them is because of the loving reassuring tone of the presentations.

So if there is anyone who would like to moderate the discussion please do! Thanks!


Last edited by pethuel on Tue Apr 16, 2024 6:27 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:13 am +0000
Posts: 1321
Location: Denver CO
Hi Al,

Thanks for proposing a new topic. I am like you - interested, but not qualified as regards science in general.

I just want to point out that the section you cited is in Paper 42, not Paper 41

https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-42-energymind-and-matter/#U42_5_0


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
maryjo606 wrote:
Hi Al,

Thanks for proposing a new topic. I am like you - interested, but not qualified as regards science in general.

I just want to point out that the section you cited is in Paper 42, not Paper 41

https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-42-energymind-and-matter/#U42_5_0



Hahahah busted without my glasses! Thanks MaryJo and good morning


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
This is what first caught my attention:

42:5.14 The so-called ether is merely a collective name to designate a group of force and energy activities occurring in space. Ultimatons, electrons, and other mass aggregations of energy are uniform particles of matter, and in their transit through space they really proceed in direct lines. Light and all other forms of recognizable energy manifestations consist of a succession of definite energy particles which proceed in direct lines except as modified by gravity and other intervening forces. That these processions of energy particles appear as wave phenomena when subjected to certain observations is due to the resistance of the undifferentiated force blanket of all space, the hypothetical ether, and to the intergravity tension of the associated aggregations of matter. The spacing of the particle-intervals of matter, together with the initial velocity of the energy beams, establishes the undulatory appearance of many forms of energy-matter.

Me here: One demonstration that provoked a more recent discussion of light behaving as both a particle and wave (depending on the observer) provoked considerable thought.
One Google reference states "Einstein was the first to explain what was happening. He theorized that electromagnetic energy comes in packets, or quanta which we now call photons. So light behaves as a wave and as a particle, depending on the circumstances and the effect being observed. This concept is now known as wave-particle duality.

Is "reality" dependent on the observer?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
pethuel wrote:
This is what first caught my attention:

42:5.14 The so-called ether is merely a collective name to designate a group of force and energy activities occurring in space. Ultimatons, electrons, and other mass aggregations of energy are uniform particles of matter, and in their transit through space they really proceed in direct lines. Light and all other forms of recognizable energy manifestations consist of a succession of definite energy particles which proceed in direct lines except as modified by gravity and other intervening forces. That these processions of energy particles appear as wave phenomena when subjected to certain observations is due to the resistance of the undifferentiated force blanket of all space, the hypothetical ether, and to the intergravity tension of the associated aggregations of matter. The spacing of the particle-intervals of matter, together with the initial velocity of the energy beams, establishes the undulatory appearance of many forms of energy-matter.

Me here: One demonstration that provoked a more recent discussion of light behaving as both a particle and wave (depending on the observer) provoked considerable thought.
One Google reference states "Einstein was the first to explain what was happening. He theorized that electromagnetic energy comes in packets, or quanta which we now call photons. So light behaves as a wave and as a particle, depending on the circumstances and the effect being observed. This concept is now known as wave-particle duality.

Is "reality" dependent on the observer?


So....the text is a technical reference, but your query seems philosophical...a more comfortable arena for my personal consideration and participation. :wink:

I think the UB makes it clear that reality is as it is and is the same universally regardless of and despite its awareness or perspective or understanding or experience or wisdom or origin of any "observer".

False beliefs and/or perspective distortions do not change, affect, distort, or define reality.

An old Zen saying is that things are not as they appear ...and neither are they different... until they appear differently ...but still are things not as they appear.

The Urantia Papers teach that our perspective of universe reality will become less and less subjective and more and more objective as we gain knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

Reality does not change by observation except as personal perspective distorts it - the "resistance" of a 'differentiated' force of observational distortions, so to speak...

8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Apr 19, 2024 5:28 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
A keyword search for "immutable" yields a helpful perspective I think:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

8)

The observer nor any observation by any observer determine or affects reality. The physics of a tree falling in the forest causes sound waves, whether any person is present to 'hear' it or not.

Universe reality is not a projection or matrix or invention made 'real' merely by its observation. Reality is real and dependable in its properties regardless of its observation by those who exist within that reality.

Or so I understand the UB to teach...

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
fanofVan wrote:
A keyword search for "immutable" yields a helpful perspective I think:

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

8)

The observer nor any observation by any observer determine or affects reality. The physics of a tree falling in the forest causes sound waves, whether any person is present to 'hear' it or not.

Universe reality is not a projection or matrix or invention made 'real' merely by its observation. Reality is real and dependable in its properties regardless of its observation by those who exist within that reality.

Or so I understand the UB to teach...



Great points! My question was rhetorical of course, I assume that kind of reasoning is what lead the authors to refer to "the confusion of metaphysics". And as the quote "That these processions of energy particles appear as wave phenomena when subjected to certain observations is due to the resistance of the undifferentiated force blanket of all space, the hypothetical ether, and to the intergravity tension of the associated aggregations of matter. The spacing of the particle-intervals of matter, together with the initial velocity of the energy beams, establishes the undulatory appearance of many forms of energy-matter' confirms the Zen saying you shared.

Nevertheless, each individual views reality differently, no one observes a sunset the same as everyone else, although the sunset is only a single sunset.

It is encouraging to know that we will go past the subjective analysis of our existence and move on to objective perspectives.

The "immutable" quotes are great, very definitive! Thanks!

I saw Riktare also shared some good points in the "Science" topic on Paper 42 as well.

The UB presentation of cosmology is earthshaking and I find it fascinating. often finding myself in awe while reading these explanations of the origins and functions of the physical realm.
Thanks for participating Bradly.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
Quote:

Nevertheless, each individual views reality differently, no one observes a sunset the same as everyone else, although the sunset is only a single sunset.


A perfect example of the disconnect between reality itself and its observation! There is no such thing as a setting sun!! Except for and by a planetary bound observer who cites the appearance of reality, which is not truly as it appears after all!

8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
fanofVan wrote:
Quote:

Nevertheless, each individual views reality differently, no one observes a sunset the same as everyone else, although the sunset is only a single sunset.


A perfect example of the disconnect between reality itself and its observation! There is no such thing as a setting sun!! Except for and by a planetary bound observer who cites the appearance of reality, which is not truly as it appears after all!

8)


Ha ha good point!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
Well, I had just finished a post and clicked to post but something was amiss and I lost it, boo hoo hoo.

I thought it good to start from the beginning of Paper 42 if you don't mind, we were discussing "reality" so let's see how Paper 42 covers the subject:

42:0.1 THE FOUNDATION OF the universe is material in the sense that energy is the basis of all existence, and pure energy is controlled by the Universal Father. Force, energy, is the one thing which stands as an everlasting monument demonstrating and proving the existence and presence of the Universal Absolute. This vast stream of energy proceeding from the Paradise Presences has never lapsed, never failed; there has never been a break in the infinite upholding.

:-o That is quite an opening statement!

2:0.2 The manipulation of universe energy is ever in accordance with the personal will and the all-wise mandates of the Universal Father. This personal control of manifested power and circulating energy is modified by the co-ordinate acts and decisions of the Eternal Son, as well as by the united purposes of the Son and the Father executed by the Conjoint Actor. These divine beings act personally and as individuals; they also function in the persons and powers of an almost unlimited number of subordinates, each variously expressive of the eternal and divine purpose in the universe of universes. But these functional and provisional modifications or transmutations of divine power in no way lessen the truth of the statement that all force-energy is under the ultimate control of a personal God resident at the center of all things.

Me: The Conjoint Actor has always been a bit of a mystery to me but according to Paper 9
9:1.3 (99.2) While you envisage the Father as an original creator and the Son as a spiritual administrator, you should think of the Third Source and Center as a universal co-ordinator, a minister of unlimited co-operation. The Conjoint Actor is the correlator of all actual reality; he is the Deity repository of the Father’s thought and the Son’s word and in action is eternally regardful of the material absoluteness of the central Isle. The Paradise Trinity has ordained the universal order of progress, and the providence of God is the domain of the Conjoint Creator and the evolving Supreme Being. No actual or actualizing reality can escape eventual relationship with the Third Source and Center.

Me: "The correlator of all actual reality" according to the Oxford Dictionary "correlate" means verb
/ˈkôrəˌlāt/
have a mutual relationship or connection, in which one thing affects or depends on another.
"the study found that success in the educational system correlates highly with class". Please correct me if I'm wrong but it appears to me that the Conjoint Actor is like the link that connects spiritual reality and physical reality.

1. Paradise Forces and Energies
2:1.1 The foundation of the universe is material, but the essence of life is spirit. The Father of spirits is also the ancestor of universes; the eternal Father of the Original Son is also the eternity-source of the original pattern, the Isle of Paradise.

42:1.2 Matter—energy—for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise. The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.

:o That last sentence is quite the mindblower! When I was 18 I was seeking answers and in prayer I asked "What is infinity?" The answer that came to me was "The smallest is the largest and the largest is the smallest." Evidently in the realm of the spirit physical borders and limits are non-existent. Please forgive me if I come to some wrong conclusions, I am just trying to learn!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
41:9.2 (465.2) Atoms and electrons are subject to gravity. The ultimatons are not subject to local gravity, the interplay of material attraction, but they are fully obedient to absolute or Paradise gravity, to the trend, the swing, of the universal and eternal circle of the universe of universes. Ultimatonic energy does not obey the linear or direct gravity attraction of near-by or remote material masses, but it does ever swing true to the circuit of the great ellipse of the far-flung creation.

8)

I think, perhaps, that the sentence you posted above might reference this earlier text as to the ultimaton's source and center of its gravitational effects...rather than finding Paradise residing within each of these particles of matter.

However, the paradox you present is a relevant looking-glass reality perspective. The UB says Paradise has a very specific location and describes its gigantuan size in detail. How then can Paradise also be the "nucleus" of all the ultimatons??!!

Can this Paradise nucleus reside, not within but outside of this particle of energy/matter?

Are we swallowing camels here? Or straining gnats?

8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1494
fanofVan wrote:
How then can Paradise also be the "nucleus" of all the ultimatons??!!

Could it be that what they mean about Paradise being the nucleus of all ultimatons is that it's similar to how the greater mass of protons at the center of an atom is the nucleus of all its electrons?

Wouldn't that effectively amalgamate linear gravity with Paradise gravity somehow?

Just thinking out loud.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
Perhaps we are being told that Paradise acts as the ultimatons nucleus, but that Paradise is not to be found at the center of each ultimaton?? A behavioral and functional center of gravity but not linear gravity where material atoms are orbital gravitational systems whereby the internal orbital relationships determines the functionality of the atom.

If so, then Paradise is the gravitational and functional 'nucleus' of the ultimatons, while linear gravity and the internal and orbital atomic structure are subject to "the interplay of material attraction".

The conundrum would then be a nucleus not found in the center/middle of or even within the structure of the ultimatons, but outside of and far removed and distant from the ultimatons.

This would make all energy and matter subject to Paradise gravitational controls and stabilization in time and space. Material realities are created by and upheld by Spirit and the Deity Gravity Circuits.

????? :idea: :-s 8)

4:1.4 (55.2) There is no limitation of the forces and personalities which the Father may use to uphold his purpose and sustain his creatures. “The eternal God is our refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.” “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” “Behold, he who keeps us shall neither slumber nor sleep.” “We know that all things work together for good to those who love God,” “for the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers.”

4:1.5 (55.3) God upholds “all things by the word of his power.” And when new worlds are born, he “sends forth his Sons and they are created.” God not only creates, but he “preserves them all.” God constantly upholds all things material and all beings spiritual. The universes are eternally stable. There is stability in the midst of apparent instability. There is an underlying order and security in the midst of the energy upheavals and the physical cataclysms of the starry realms.

4:1.6 (55.4) The Universal Father has not withdrawn from the management of the universes; he is not an inactive Deity. If God should retire as the present upholder of all creation, there would immediately occur a universal collapse. Except for God, there would be no such thing as reality. At this very moment, as during the remote ages of the past and in the eternal future, God continues to uphold. The divine reach extends around the circle of eternity. The universe is not wound up like a clock to run just so long and then cease to function; all things are constantly being renewed. The Father unceasingly pours forth energy, light, and life. The work of God is literal as well as spiritual. “He stretches out the north over the empty space and hangs the earth upon nothing.”

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:14 am +0000
Posts: 395
fanofVan wrote:
Perhaps we are being told that Paradise acts as the ultimatons nucleus, but that Paradise is not to be found at the center of each ultimaton?? A behavioral and functional center of gravity but not linear gravity where material atoms are orbital gravitational systems whereby the internal orbital relationships determines the functionality of the atom.

If so, then Paradise is the gravitational and functional 'nucleus' of the ultimatons, while linear gravity and the internal and orbital atomic structure are subject to "the interplay of material attraction".

The conundrum would then be a nucleus not found in the center/middle of or even within the structure of the ultimatons, but outside of and far removed and distant from the ultimatons.

This would make all energy and matter subject to Paradise gravitational controls and stabilization in time and space. Material realities are created by and upheld by Spirit and the Deity Gravity Circuits.

????? :idea: :-s 8)

4:1.4 (55.2) There is no limitation of the forces and personalities which the Father may use to uphold his purpose and sustain his creatures. “The eternal God is our refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms.” “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” “Behold, he who keeps us shall neither slumber nor sleep.” “We know that all things work together for good to those who love God,” “for the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayers.”

4:1.5 (55.3) God upholds “all things by the word of his power.” And when new worlds are born, he “sends forth his Sons and they are created.” God not only creates, but he “preserves them all.” God constantly upholds all things material and all beings spiritual. The universes are eternally stable. There is stability in the midst of apparent instability. There is an underlying order and security in the midst of the energy upheavals and the physical cataclysms of the starry realms.

4:1.6 (55.4) The Universal Father has not withdrawn from the management of the universes; he is not an inactive Deity. If God should retire as the present upholder of all creation, there would immediately occur a universal collapse. Except for God, there would be no such thing as reality. At this very moment, as during the remote ages of the past and in the eternal future, God continues to uphold. The divine reach extends around the circle of eternity. The universe is not wound up like a clock to run just so long and then cease to function; all things are constantly being renewed. The Father unceasingly pours forth energy, light, and life. The work of God is literal as well as spiritual. “He stretches out the north over the empty space and hangs the earth upon nothing.”


I have neither the knowledge or depth to debate this question, but if I may add this:

The Papers are so well written, every paragraph and sentence is so precise, and every word so deliberately placed in each of those paragraphs and sentences, that it is hard for me to believe that they would make a riddle out of one sentence in the entire book! Why would they end a paragraph with a statement like that? It is such a definite and concise statement at that! No beating around the bush or shilly-shallying! Just a frank direct statement that the first measurable form of energy has Paradise as its nucleus!
Quote:
Ultimatons are the energy particles which make up the electrons, the PRIME physical units of material existence (472:1)
pretty small in our view, but perhaps there is more than meets the eye.

Of course, I can be straining at gnats and swallowing camels, but since I started studying this chapter I wish to understand what it is saying, so thanks Bradly and NodAmanaV for helping out, I hope to learn more from you as we continue.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 6039
"I have neither the knowledge or depth to debate this question..."

Me either!! And I am not debating...just hoping to understand.

Actually, the UB presents much that I consider paradox, and Jesus used paradox frequently as a teaching tool.

The authors offer us much speculation and wonderment about the unrevealed, the unknowns, and the endless mysteries in the universe of universes.

"...Paradise as it's nucleus..." could be describing function rather than position within the ultimatons. The center of an orbital relationship assumption may be a conceptual prejudice and misconception.

Don't know...just thinking out loud...

..."as"... hmmmm....not "at" its nucleus but as it's nucleus. As if the "center" of all ultimatons perhaps rather than within the middle of each one??

Perhaps it is clear but our assumptions are not so much? Is it "concise"??

A review of Paper 11 is recommended. The largest of all creations, at a very specific location, that is fixed and at the very center of creation...the nucleus of creation.

8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 132 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group