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Dear Friends,

I am sure this has been discussed at length, but recently I had dialogue with a good fellow and we were talking about his belief in reincarnation. Specifically, we discussed TUB saying there is no such thing, at least in the way that we define reincarnation (having multiple lives on earth).

How come people believe in reincarnation and does the Urantia Book specifcally state reincarnation doesn't occur with mortals?

An then here's the real question. Do we as UB readers take everything in the UB as absolute truth - unyielding and uncompromising, and in doing so, are we in danger of doing the very same thing that Christianity has done with the Biblle, which is to make it the end all, be all of religious truth?

I'm really conflicted by this. If on the one hand I believe the UB is what it says it is, then I have to accept certain statements as being irrefutable. If, on the other hand, if statements made in the Urantia Book are not true - then how can I go on believing I have really found a new revelation?

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I have thought about this same question. Roughly half of my local UB study group I would broadly consider "New Age" in their beliefs. Reincarnation and astrology are the only subjects that I deeply question the UB book on. Both of these subjects have various support around the world and over time. There is much supporting evidence (especially using hypnosis) for reincarnation, and the full moon effect is well known to police officers when people go crazier, supporting the idea that the planets can influence human actions. Also Mars seems to cyclically promote of war about every 30 years.

My conclusion is that the UB intentionally lied about these topics (or at least reincarnation for this discussion) for good reasons. A belief in reincarnation tends to make people put off doing anything spiritually relevant for their next life. Believing that we must focus on this life like our eternal survival depends on what we do here and now is most important.

As a "bible" the UB book does an excellent job of presenting a coherent view of spiritual life. Reincarnation only opens up a can of distracting worms. I was briefly involved in a New Age Christian Church that taught reincarnation and found that reincarnation tends to lead to over-speculation about past lives and over-focusing on the past. Thus, the UB authors wisely chose to discredit this idea.

It seems a waste to have the sleeping survivors do nothing until a dispensational role call.

-TS


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Hi Jim,

I do not believe in reincarnation personally, based on my understanding of what the UB states. Do I think the revelators purposely lied to us about this, not at all.


Here is a quote from The Urantia Book. This is taken from the life of Jesus:

There was, throughout all these regions, a lingering belief in reincarnation. The older Jewish teachers, together with Plato, Philo, and many of the Essenes, tolerated the theory that men may reap in one incarnation what they have sown in a previous existence; thus in one life they were believed to be expiating the sins committed in preceding lives. The Master found it difficult to make men believe that their souls had not had previous existences. (164:3.4)

The Truthbook link.

http://www.truthbook.com/toughest/dsp_v ... ionID=2960

Jim


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Hello All,

I'm sure everyone knows that this is a Urantia Book discussion forum -- we discuss our understanding of the teachings of TUB and how they apply to us. So obviously it's not a forum for discussing the merits of our own personal philosophies -- we've had members drop in and slap their philosphies across the various topics as if their personal opinions had some weight of logic or some manner of merrit associated with them... as if they were of equal value with those of epochal revelation.

We're each entitled to our opinions and we all have opinions about things we know next to nothing about. One of the beauties of studying the teachings of TUB is that they provide a foundation for forming informed opinions, so that what we think has some basis in solid reality. So, basically we don't care whether you believe in reincarnation, werewolves, zombies, ghosts, UFOs, fortune telling, good and bad luck, or psychic healing. What we do care about is how your opinions relate to or are justified or validated through the teachings of TUB.

For Jim -- yes, this topic has been discussed at length. You might do a search to learn more. Why people believe in reincarnation is frankly explained in the book -- you might also check the FAQ on Truthbook.com. You'll learn that TUB does state that mortal reincarnation is a figment, not a fact.

No one is compelled to take everything they read in TUB as absolute truth -- you are encouraged to mull over what it's presenting, to test its teachings against your own perceptions of truth.If you do conclude that the book is what it claims to be you might ask yourself, if I were alive during Jesus' time, how much of what Jesus said would I believe. Or, if I had lived with Melchizedek, how much of what Melchizedek said would I have accepted. Same with Adam and Eve, same with the Prince and his staff. Are your perceptions sharp enough to pick and choose from these previous epochal revelations of truth? But, if you don't believe that TUB lives up to its claim then it's much easier to dismiss what it says; even then we'll expect you here to back up your opinions with something more concrete than "it's just my opinion" since we really aren't particularly interested in just your opinions.

So Jim, I see your indecision as simply being unwilling to choose. If your choice is just to believe whatever feels good then it's no choice at all. If your choice is to conform your beliefs to what is reasonable, logical, justified by the conviction of truth then yes, you certainly can accept what's written at face value after you've tested it.

For TeachSon1 -- you're correct that astrology and reincarnation find favor in the majority of the population. What weight does that carry? Does the explanation in TUB for why people believe these fallicies and why they are mistaken ring true to you or not? Is following the wishful thinking crowd simply more comfortable? You say you deeply question the teachings of TUB but you've offered no examples. Questioning without a foundation for the question may be naive. If you're going to say you question some aspect of TUB, give an example of what TUB discloses that you question and back that up with why you question it -- saying there is much supporting evidence is not supporting evidence at all -- there really is no supporting evidence despite the wishes and desires; there's conjecture, there are interesting stories, there's nothing approaching the proof provided by TUB to refute these myths.

And TeachSon -- you cannot come to this UB discussion forum and say TUB lied; sorry, that's unacceptable. To those who accept TUB as the revelation it claims to be, your assertation is on a par with saying Jesus also lied about reincarnation and astrology. If you feel compelled to make dogmatic statements provide facts to substantiate them, not personal opinion, since this is, after all, a discussion forum about the teachings of TUB, not about the opinions of its members.

Are your beliefs based in rational thought or are they more the result of whimsy? It might be beneficial to take some time out and to take in a movie, the recently released Men Who Stare at Goats to be specific. It does a great job of exposing the unproductivity of wishful and fanciful thinking -- of exposing where unfounded speculation can lead, of chronicling why a reasonable approach to life in general is more valuable than refusing to face reality. Let's resist the urge to make a habit of staring at goats.

Best wishes,
Larry


Last edited by lwatkins on Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:10 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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This is my take on reincarnation. I don’t believe it. The UB teaches that each person is bestowed with a unique personality. That already says it all. The UB would be contradicting itself if it teaches that reincarnation is true. It contradicts all the teachings about us having Thought Adjusters. It contradicts the ascension plan. If you were reincarnated here in earth thousand times as different persons, who would your TA be fused with?

Besides, the supposed purpose of reincarnation is to correct mistakes in previous lives. How can one correct the mistakes he can’t even remember?


Ysmael


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How can one correct the mistakes he can’t even remember?


Touché!


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For TeachSon1 -- you're correct that astrology and reincarnation find favor in the majority of the population. What weight does that carry? Does the explanation in TUB for why people believe these fallicies and why they are mistaken ring true to you or not? Is following the wishful thinking crowd simply more comfortable? You say you deeply question the teachings of TUB but you've offered no examples. Questioning without a foundation for the question may be naive. If you're going to say you question some aspect of TUB, give an example of what TUB discloses that you question and back that up with why you question it -- saying there is much supporting evidence is not supporting evidence at all -- there really is no supporting evidence despite the wishes and desires; there's conjecture, there are interesting stories, there's nothing approaching the proof provided by TUB to refute these myths.

And TeachSon -- you cannot come to this UB discussion forum and say TUB lied; sorry, that's unacceptable. To those who accept TUB as the revelation it claims to be, your assertation is on a par with saying Jesus also lied about reincarnation and astrology. If you feel compelled to make dogmatic statements provide facts to substantiate them, not personal opinion, since this is, after all, a discussion forum about the teachings of TUB, not about the opinions of its members.

Are your beliefs based in rational thought or are they more the result of whimsy? It might be beneficial to take some time out and to take in a movie, the recently released Men Who Stare at Goats to be specific. It does a great job of exposing the unproductivity of wishful and fanciful thinking -- of exposing where unfounded speculation can lead, of chronicling why a reasonable approach to life in general is more valuable than refusing to face reality. Let's resist the urge to make a habit of staring at goats.


To clarify, I meant that I accept virtually everything in the UB except its dismissal of reincarnation and astrology. I offered simple examples of evidence supporting these two concepts. I don't necessarily believe that everyone reincarnates, only that it happens in some cases.

I suggest that the UB intentionally lies about these subjects because believing in them generally leads to, as you say, unproductive wishful and fanciful thinking. For example, believing in astrology can tend to have people think "my fate is in the stars, so there's nothing I can do."

I sure everyone has their own personal struggles believing certain information given in the book. With me it is the above two concepts. Certainly if I preach the UB, I will follow the book. My inquisitive, concrete thinking mind has perhaps over-intellectualized this issue.

Given the various UB authors who explicitly deny reincarnation, I should get the hint. However, I became struck by the line (p351 Paper31 S9) 'The sixteenth proscription of the mandate authorizing these narratives says: "If deemed wise, the existence of the Architects of the Master Universe and their associates may be disclosed, but their origin, nature, and destiny may not be fully revealed."' I don't have much interest (yet) in the Architects of the Master Universe, rather that there are at least 16 proscriptions that the authors must follow. Elsewhere, a few authors in passing claim that they can't reveal certain information. I believe these proscriptions are good and important, but I wonder what they are, and couldn't one proscription call for denying reincarnation, astrology and other things detrimental to most people's spiritual progress?

-TS


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Hi Jim :D

The most striking question in your post to me was how could you go on believing....listen to that small quiet voice that has brought you to the Urantia book time after time, year after year. What you suddenly feel may be somehow imperfect and therefore now not believable is a living truth with yeilding written right in when it talked about the limits on language and science etc. I can tell you that the more I read it, the more I feel it is self reinforcing that it is exactly what it says it is. I know when I apply what I learn when I read my life goes much better.

I would say read the U.B. more and use the search engine and study tools. Seems like doubts are often eased by a careful reading, especially with a question already in mind.

Why do people believe in reincarnation....they are often taught to believe and it sticks. Me, I only need the one trip here, been fun, but sounds like the adventure is ahead and I like the flight plan big time.
Next stop Mansion world :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I will pray for you tonight and I hope you find an ease to this feeling of conflict.


Last edited by fishin'Mom on Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:24 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Hi All

I don't see anything out of the norm with Jim's or TS questioning. Granted that the word "lie" may have triggered a defensive reaction in some but why do we come undone whenever anyone goes through the simple human process of questioning or doubting?

We've recently had a long (and at times, hostile) thread regarding dissemination of the FER. The poster's "written" attitude came across as being arrogant and condescending, and the resulting responses reflected a similar reaction (IMO). But all I see happening here is an honest search for answers to something that is niggling at their brain. No one is going to hell. No one is going to be damned. Their souls are not "lost" so we need not wring our hands and offer profuse prayers to save them.

Jim posted in the "Sceptic Corner"...appropriately...and was asking an innocent question. If this is too dangerous to discuss on the open forum then move it to Abner's. But please, questioning is part of human nature, endowed by our Creator to propel us forward, not backwards.



3:5.8 3. Is hope—the grandeur of trust—desirable? Then human existence must constantly be confronted with insecurities and recurrent uncertainties.


3:5.9 4. Is faith—the supreme assertion of human thought—desirable? Then must the mind of man find itself in that troublesome predicament where it ever knows less than it can believe.

3:5.10 5. Is the love of truth and the willingness to go wherever it leads, desirable? Then must man grow up in a world where error is present and falsehood always possible.

3:5.12 7. Is loyalty—devotion to highest duty—desirable? Then must man carry on amid the possibilities of betrayal and desertion. The valor of devotion to duty consists in the implied danger of default.


Peace Jo

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Sorry Jo -- there were two problems with this thread right from the beginning. The first is it was originally posted in Open Discussion and not in Skeptic's Corner -- Admin moved it here, where it would still have been met with reproach for its initial tone.

We're open to a degree of skepticism (critical thinking would be a better term since skepticism connotes an initial negative attitude) but we'll not condone "the Urantia Book lies" as a point of view for discussion and that required correcting.

Not only does the Truthbook website have a wealth of information covering many of the topics in The Urantia Book -- such as reincarnation... it's always a good place to begin to look into a topic -- but reincarnation has been discussed often and thoroughly here on the discussion board over the past years and tends to become a launching pad for psychic foolery. A post made 3 years ago can be just as relevant to a topic as one made today -- everyone is encouraged to use the search facility and to familiarize themselves with what has transpired here over the years. Inactive topics can be unlocked and reactivated if there's more to be added.

Neither is this discussion board open to promoting personal opinion that runs contrary to the teachings of TUB -- and that's been explained in my previous post above. What is the value of a board where everyone is free to promote their own opinions about things in general or a particular philosophy of life that has no basis in the revelation and to keep running over the same topics like a gerbil on a wheel? If it's already been said, already been thrashed about and there's nothing new to be added to the mix then it's time to move on to something more currently meaningful.

Larry


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Jim asked:
Quote:
An then here's the real question. Do we as UB readers take everything in the UB as absolute truth - unyielding and uncompromising, and in doing so, are we in danger of doing the very same thing that Christianity has done with the Biblle, which is to make it the end all, be all of religious truth?


Jim,

I believe the UB as it claims it is but I don’t take everything in it as absolute truth. The UB itself says that it is not. It admits that its cosmology is not inspired and will be outdated in the near future and probably needs to be updated as wisdom increases. And the revelators also freely admitted that they are not know-it-all beings and freely gave their own speculations about matters they are not sure of. So it is not infallible and I warn fellow readers not to commit the same mistake that some Christians did with the Bible. But the UB, I believe is serviceable for the next thousand years before a new revelation maybe needed to replace it. It will surely serve its purpose before a new one appears. That’s my opinion.

Ysmael


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Hi All.
I'm a fairly new reader compared to a lot of folks here. I like what I read in TUB for it provides clarity for me.
Here's a simple concept that works for me.
Seek a clear path and follow it.
8)

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Slyde


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Dang it...missed not just one mark but two :shock: ! Man, it is so hard to be humble, but....
....correction(s) noted, Larry.

Peace
Jo


PS...it was really difficult to log in and stay logged in. Kept kicking me out each time I tried to post this....so let me see if it will allow this to go through.

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No longer can man presume to monopolize the ministry of religious service. ...among the followers of Jesus woman has been forever set free from all religious discriminations based on gender. TUB pg 2065 (194:3.14)


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Hi All,

Very interesting topic.

We know that there are certain religions that promote the belief in reincarnation. There are some individuals that claim to have reincarnated and can recite very intimate information concerning the human that they claimed to be at an earlier date.

I have read the papers on the thought adjusters many times and if you read these papers it will clear up any confusion on this topic. (papers 107-111) We know that mankind goes through different stages of development. Primitive men get the advantage of the adjutant mind spirits of their particular mother Spirit. These mind spirits spiritualize the minds of primitive men. At this early stage mankind are closer to the animal stage than they are to becoming spiritual beings. When these persons die and go on to the mansion worlds they eventually become spirit fused.

Farther along in the evolutionary development of mankind more humans are responding to the urgings of the adjutant mind spirits of the mother Spirit. When they die and go on to the mansion worlds their future destiny is to become son fused. So, dependent on where ones development comes in evolutionary development will determine whether or not those humans will become spirit fused or son fused.

Still further along in our evolutionary development and certainly after the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth, more mortals become Father fused. For example, Jesus's personal thought adjuster had fifteen previous incarnations with various individuals. Imagine if his thought adjuster dwelt in the mind of someone that did not have the knowledge of a Creator Son. He or she may interpret these different lives as different incarnations. This could certainly explain the tendency to believe in reincarnation. Not to be overlooked is one's religious upbringing. If children are taught that reincarnation is a reality, then they may come to believe that they have lived before.


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110:4.5 There exists a vast gulf between the human and the divine, between man and God. The Urantia races are so largely electrically and chemically controlled, so highly animallike in their common behavior, so emotional in their ordinary reactions, that it becomes exceedingly difficult for the Monitors to guide and direct them. You are so devoid of courageous decisions and consecrated co-operation that your indwelling Adjusters find it next to impossible to communicate directly with the human mind. Even when they do find it possible to flash a gleam of new truth to the evolving mortal soul, this spiritual revelation often so blinds the creature as to precipitate a convulsion of fanaticism or to initiate some other intellectual upheaval which results disastrously. Many a new religion and strange " ism " has arisen from the aborted, imperfect, misunderstood, and garbled communications of the Thought Adjusters.


Some have come to believe in reincarnation because of the gleams of truth being misinterpreted by the recipient. If the recipient receives inspiration before receiving appropriate understanding, they may well interpret things that would lead them to believe that they had lived before.

Paul


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I'm questioning your understanding of spirit fused, son fused, and father fused. Methinks it has to do with worlds and circumstances, not chronology. But I'd better review that material so I know what I'm talking about before I go making inquiry into what you think you're doing.

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