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 Post subject: Re: Personality Survival
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Greetings Redtread,

Redtread wrote:
The afterlife has always been a big part of my faith, maybe one of main reasons I actually believe. I think if it weren't for that idea of accountability hereafter to keep me in line any good part of me would've met a swift and tragic end.


That's very interesting. So is it the hope of eternal life that makes you want to believe or the idea of a judgment day?

Redtread wrote:
I started with Hell experiences, which scared me straight for a while, I was obsessed with the idea of Hell. Something seemed so disgustingly real and right about it.


Ah, so it seems that it is the judgment day scenario that works, or worked for you. The fear of punishment works for some people, although it is a primitive idea. One of the beautiful things about the Revelation is that it describes the origin of this type of thought and puts into proper perspective historically and eschatologically.

Redtread wrote:
But that didn't last long, because I started to look harder in my bible and I realized there's dozens of verses that promise, or seem to indicate, "the redemption of all things." I won't belabor this topic with a list, but I figure there's at least a dozen verses indicating God's heart to restore everything to everyone for every one verse about "hell." The doctrine of Hell is pretty messily stitched together and really fails to account for the "full council of scripture," although I don't necessarily like that term either.


Praise the Lord and amen to that. It's obvious that your ideas progressed. Your Adjuster must have enlightened you. That's called personal revelation.

Redtread wrote:
Also I couldn't bear up under the pressure of seeing everyone around me as potentially firewood. It really got to me after a while.


Yup! There it is again! Evidence of Adjuster guidance, altruistic thinking. Well done, you were willing to have your thoughts spiritized, Adjustered.

Redtread wrote:
The reason I like NDE's is because they violate all of that.


No they don't. They support all of that. Don't forget that descriptions of NDEs are from the viewpoint of the material mind and the habits of thinking during mortal life, the structural scaffolding of thought which can be completely erroneous (see quote below). Recall that the apostle John described the creatures in charge of the directional control of Nebadan as "beasts", scary and horrible, covered with eyes, wings and heads like lions and cows. You can't trust the material mind's description of morontia levels of reality. Just because the descriptions are unbelievable doesn't mean that the experience didn't happen, nor does it mean that the morontia level of reality doesn't exist. It just means that it is indescribable with words.

Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree.
Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension.115:1:1-2


Redtread wrote:
I was surprised the author didn't even mention NDE's, not even as a false or illusory phenomenon.


I don't think they need to mention them. They give us a very detailed description and explanation of the soul and the morontia level of reality. That's all you need to know, in my opinion.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: Personality Survival
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I really need to jump in here with this -

Rexford wrote:
Do you know anyone who has experienced real spiritual death?
That's a very interesting question. Firstly, what is spiritual death? Can you be physically alive and be spiritually dead? The Urantia Book indicates yes, this is possible. Regarding the other part of Rexford's question, whether or not knowing anyone who is spiritually dead, I often fear that I do. My very own father. The family high priest of intentional terminal atheism.

He is now well into his eighties and to this day, I can't spend more than 10 minutes with him and he begins to evangelize his religion of atheism, the religion of - there's no purpose to life, which hinges its faith in the - there is no god. My dad says he is certain that when he dies nothing will happen and he will stop existing as if he never was. He has repeatedly told me that this central idea he firmly desires and insists upon. He has many times told me that if this isn't true and is brought back into existence he will "give God a piece of his mind" for being such a "lousy" god. He also repeatedly tells me that anyone who believes in God because of what a book says is "an idiot". He generally attacks anyone who expresses faith in religion, whichever one it is. And many times has been as rude as can be about it. It's been an incredible test allowing him to be a part of my life.

So I ask you, is my dad experiencing "real spiritual death"? I'm afraid of the answer.


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Greetings Redtread,

Redtread wrote:
The best description I've heard of for NDEs is that they are a dream state. It's an overall satisfying explanation.


So you're saying that a person who is close to death is dreaming? Don't dreams require increased brain activity? We've known since the 1950's that dream states occur during REM. REM sleep is the result of active EEG patterns similar to being awake. It seems to me that if the brain is dying, it would not be able to create an active awake-like EEG pattern. NDEs have been reported during flat EEGs. It doesn't add up to anything dream-like.

Redtread wrote:
A dream that plays over and over is a conflict that needs resolved and isn't getting resolved.


I agree that conflicts, whether in the conscious or unconscious mind, need resolution. I know from my own recurring dreams that certain issues need to be addressed by my psyche when they occur. It's not always obvious, but after 30 years of the same dream, one begins to see the obvious. The Adjuster does attempt to help us during sleep. Each person is meant to interpret this for himself; however, one is not meant to put undue significance upon it.

Redtread wrote:
It makes the most sense to me that, upon death, people would enter into a dream state, like a purgatory , where those things that need to be dealt with may confront them repeatedly until they find a way to deal with, move past, accept forgiveness, etc.


I prefer to think of it more as limbo, a reality between this one and the next. Until death is determined to be irrevocable, it makes sense that there is a holding place which can be experienced; albeit, descriptions of such an experience can be totally erroneous.

Redtread wrote:
But TUB mentions nothing about this dream state, although it does say that we are asleep after death.


No, but the Papers do mention dream states where an individual experiences morontia reality. We have a description of the third heaven by Paul and the directional control creatures of Salvington by John. There's no doubt that these mysterious phenomena do actually occur.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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 Post subject: Re: Personality Survival
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Greetings fanofVan,

Thanks for the conversation and for being such a good sport. I'm concerned about this statement:

fanofVan wrote:
Facts come by the epochal....truth by the personal.


Are you saying that the Fourth Epochal Revelation was just about facts and not truth? I find that statement almost impossible to believe. How exactly are you defining fact and truth? Was Jesus just a fact? Was his gospel a fact? It doesn't add up. I do think this deserves much discussion. Much, much!!

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Greetings fanofVan,

You wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Can we discern results of bad, better, and good choices? Certainly. . . . Judge the results of motive, priority, and choice.


The keyword here is "results". We cannot always discern the results. Nor can we make judgments as to the badness or goodness of results. How many times has something that appears to be bad actually turn out to be good? It happens all of the time. We are not adequate arbiters of "results". The results are God's; they are not ours to discern or evaluate.

Our goal is to constantly seek to know God and do his will. If we know him as a personal experience, then doing his will requires no special discernment or skill. Fruits simply grow on the vine, the vine which remains connected to God within the soul. We do not produce the fruit, God produces the fruit. Our only purpose is to remain connected, to maintain the life of the soul. The fruit will come as a result of the experience of having such a connected relationship with God, and although this takes effort, the fruit production itself is effortless. There is nothing extra that we need "to do". It's very simple and it has to be simple because we are very simple people. Once you start trying to evaluate the quality of God's fruit, fruit that you think you have produced, then you're succumbing to spiritual pride, the deification of one's own efforts at fruit production. It's dangerous territory.

fanofVan wrote:
I didn't say beliefs don't matter....I said they don't matter until acted upon....the act matters as it has reciprocal effects. If belief does not lead to choices based on beliefs, then NO, beliefs do not matter. And I cannot truly believe something that does not affect my actions. Sorry, can't be done. I can say I believe something. So what? What am I doing about what I believe? There's the rubber hitting the highway!


Belief is an act. Belief in God is a mental commitment and that is an action. Thoughts matter. Thoughts are real. If thoughts were not real, if they did not matter, then why would we need a Thought Adjuster?

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Greetings...can't tarry now. I'll be back tomorrow. But, until then, we should consider precisely what was the 4th Epochal and the 3rd. As I recall, Big Mac taught the fact there is one God over all and the gospel of Jesus was actually the fact of the paternal, kind, merciful, and loving Fatherhood of God and the family of all creation. Plenty of truth in both lives, especially Michael's for all of Nebadon.

8)

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Rexford,

The inclusion of your name was because of my appreciation of your understanding and clear explanations of the Urantia Book in this and other forums. I shall not do it again, I apologize. Since your questions reflect an expectation that I must answer according to your terms I shall respectively refuse to answer until we are better acquainted so as not to further misunderstanding.

I will offer this as a support for my challenge to Redtread to see this quest in spiritual terms.

Quote:
166:3.4 “But herein is the danger to all who would postpone their entrance into the kingdom while they continue to pursue the pleasures of immaturity and indulge the satisfactions of selfishness: Having refused to enter the kingdom as a spiritual experience, they may subsequently seek entrance thereto when the glory of the better way becomes revealed in the age to come. And when, therefore, those who spurned the kingdom when I came in the likeness of humanity seek to find an entrance when it is revealed in the likeness of divinity, then will I say to all such selfish ones: I know not whence you are. You had your chance to prepare for this heavenly citizenship, but you refused all such proffers of mercy; you rejected all invitations to come while the door was open. Now, to you who have refused salvation, the door is shut. This door is not open to those who would enter the kingdom for selfish glory. Salvation is not for those who are unwilling to pay the price of wholehearted dedication to doing my Father's will. When in spirit and soul you have turned your backs upon the Father's kingdom, it is useless in mind and body to stand before this door and knock, saying, `Lord, open to us; we would also be great in the kingdom.' Then will I declare that you are not of my fold. I will not receive you to be among those who have fought the good fight of faith and won the reward of unselfish service in the kingdom on earth. And when you say, `Did we not eat and drink with you, and did you not teach in our streets?' then shall I again declare that you are spiritual strangers; that we were not fellow servants in the Father's ministry of mercy on earth; that I do not know you; and then shall the Judge of all the earth say to you: `Depart from us, all you who have taken delight in the works of iniquity.'

166:3.5 “But fear not; every one who sincerely desires to find eternal life by entrance into the kingdom of God shall certainly find such everlasting salvation. But you who refuse this salvation will some day see the prophets of the seed of Abraham sit down with the believers of the gentile nations in this glorified kingdom to partake of the bread of life and to refresh themselves with the water thereof. And they who shall thus take the kingdom in spiritual power and by the persistent assaults of living faith will come from the north and the south and from the east and the west. And, behold, many who are first will be last, and those who are last will many times be first.”


Jesus left us his Spirit of Truth to use, to learn from, to learn to gradually and personally appreciate the reality of Jesus. Spiritual experience is the pursuit of my life. I would be happy to discuss such with you as we move on in this. I am not and will not purport to be a scholar of the Urantia Book so please don't expect such an interchange.

Thank you,

Jim


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Van,

I was writing my reply on my lunch break and was apparently too terse and not careful with what I said, I did not mean to misrepresent you.

I certainly don't think you have nothing useful to add to the topic.

There was a particular NDE I read about, a gentleman named Howard Storm. I've read his book and watched a couple interviews. He describes a cosmology and theology that are identical in many ways to what's found in TUB. He describes Jesus visiting other worlds. I'm certain it was the profound effect of his experience that opened me up to TUB in the first place.

Rex, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Morontia level, specifically of "mota" phenomenon. TUB's description of mota, coupled with your application here, this might just be the missing link I was looking for. :biggrin:

---
ref.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESJBvelLHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKmPrlgIPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBFHyyxUXmk


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Redtread wrote:
Van,

I was writing my reply on my lunch break and was apparently too terse and not careful with what I said, I did not mean to misrepresent you.

I certainly don't think you have nothing useful to add to the topic.

There was a particular NDE I read about, a gentleman named Howard Storm. I've read his book and watched a couple interviews. He describes a cosmology and theology that are identical in many ways to what's found in TUB. He describes Jesus visiting other worlds. I'm certain it was the profound effect of his experience that opened me up to TUB in the first place.

Rex, thanks for pointing me in the direction of the Morontia level, specifically of "mota" phenomenon. TUB's description of mota, coupled with your application here, this might just be the missing link I was looking for. :biggrin:

---
ref.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESJBvelLHY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbKmPrlgIPU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBFHyyxUXmk


Redtread...you may find this TB topic of interest: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3472&hilit=howard+storm

You might want to do a search here for "NDE" as it has been discussed in several topics...just for your own research.

I appreciate the kind words.

8)

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Rexford says above: "The keyword here is "results". We cannot always discern the results. Nor can we make judgments as to the badness or goodness of results. How many times has something that appears to be bad actually turn out to be good? It happens all of the time. We are not adequate arbiters of "results". The results are God's; they are not ours to discern or evaluate."

Me: This reminded me of one of my favorite stories:



The Old Man and his Horse (a.k.a. Sai Weng Shi Ma)

Once there was an old man who lived in a tiny village. Although poor, he was envied by all, for he owned a beautiful white horse. Even the king coveted his treasure. A horse like this had never been seen before – such was its splendor, its majesty, its strength.
People offered fabulous prices for the steed, but the old man always refused. “This horse is not a horse to me,” he would tell them. “It is a person. How could you sell a person? He is a friend, not a possession. How could you sell a friend.” The man was poor and the temptation was great. But he never sold the horse.

One morning he found that the horse was not in his stable. All the village came to see him. “You old fool,” they scoffed, “we told you that someone would steal your horse. We warned you that you would be robbed. You are so poor. How could you ever protect such a valuable animal? It would have been better to have sold him. You could have gotten whatever price you wanted. No amount would have been too high. Now the horse is gone and you’ve been cursed with misfortune.”

The old man responded, “Don’t speak too quickly. Say only that the horse is not in the stable. That is all we know; the rest is judgment. If I’ve been cursed or not, how can you know? How can you judge?”
The people contested, “Don’t make us out to be fools! We may not be philosophers, but great philosophy is not needed. The simple fact that your horse is gone is a curse.”
The old man spoke again. “All I know is that the stable is empty, and the horse is gone. The rest I don’t know. Whether it be a curse or a blessing, I can’t say. All we can see is a fragment. Who can say what will come next?”

The people of the village laughed. They thought that the man was crazy. They had always thought he was a fool; if he wasn’t, he would have sold the horse and lived off the money. But instead, he was a poor woodcutter, and old man still cutting firewood and dragging it out of the forest and selling it. He lived hand to mouth in the misery of poverty. Now he had proven that he was, indeed, a fool.

After fifteen days, the horse returned. He hadn’t been stolen; he had run away into the forest. Not only had he returned, he had brought a dozen wild horses with him. Once again, the village people gathered around the woodcutter and spoke. “Old man, you were right and we were wrong. What we thought was a curse was a blessing. Please forgive us.”
The man responded, “Once again, you go too far. Say only that the horse is back. State only that a dozen horses returned with him, but don’t judge. How do you know if this is a blessing or not? You see only a fragment. Unless you know the whole story, how can you judge? You read only one page of a book. Can you judge the whole book? You read only one word of one phrase. Can you understand the entire phrase?”

“Life is so vast, yet you judge all of life with one page or one word. All you have is one fragment! Don’t say that this is a blessing. No one knows. I am content with what I know. I am not perturbed by what I don’t.”
“Maybe the old man is right,” they said to one another. So they said little. But down deep, they knew he was wrong. They knew it was a blessing. Twelve wild horses had returned. With a little work, the animals could be broken and trained and sold for much money.

The old man had a son, an only son. The young man began to break the wild horses. After a few days, he fell from one of the horses and broke both legs. Once again the villagers gathered around the old man and cast their judgments.
“You were right,” they said. “You proved you were right. The dozen horses were not a blessing. They were a curse. Your only son has broken both his legs, and now in your old age you have no one to help you. Now you are poorer than ever.”
The old man spoke again. “You people are obsessed with judging. Don’t go so far. Say only that my son broke his legs. Who knows if it is a blessing or a curse? No one knows. We only have a fragment. Life comes in fragments.”

It so happened that a few weeks later the country engaged in war against a neighboring country. All the young men of the village were required to join the army. Only the son of the old man was excluded, because he was injured. Once again the people gathered around the old man, crying and screaming because their sons had been taken. There was little chance that they would return. The enemy was strong, and the war would be a losing struggle. They would never see their sons again.
“You were right, old man,” They wept. “God knows you were right. This proves it. Your son’s accident was a blessing. His legs may be broken, but at least he is with you. Our sons are gone forever.”

The old man spoke again. “It is impossible to talk with you. You always draw conclusions. No one knows. Say only this. Your sons had to go to war, and mine did not. No one knows if it is a blessing or a curse. No one is wise enough to know. Only God knows.”



8)

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"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I really need to jump in here with this -

Rexford wrote:
Do you know anyone who has experienced real spiritual death?
That's a very interesting question. Firstly, what is spiritual death? Can you be physically alive and be spiritually dead? The Urantia Book indicates yes, this is possible. Regarding the other part of Rexford's question, whether or not knowing anyone who is spiritually dead, I often fear that I do. My very own father. The family high priest of intentional terminal atheism.

He is now well into his eighties and to this day, I can't spend more than 10 minutes with him and he begins to evangelize his religion of atheism, the religion of - there's no purpose to life, which hinges its faith in the - there is no god. My dad says he is certain that when he dies nothing will happen and he will stop existing as if he never was. He has repeatedly told me that this central idea he firmly desires and insists upon. He has many times told me that if this isn't true and is brought back into existence he will "give God a piece of his mind" for being such a "lousy" god. He also repeatedly tells me that anyone who believes in God because of what a book says is "an idiot". He generally attacks anyone who expresses faith in religion, whichever one it is. And many times has been as rude as can be about it. It's been an incredible test allowing him to be a part of my life.

So I ask you, is my dad experiencing "real spiritual death"? I'm afraid of the answer.


Me: Greetings nod!! No, I don't think you need to worry about finding your dad on the shores of Mansonia. I wonder, does your dad love others? Is he loyal? Does he have any sense of wonder and heart felt desire?

It is not required, for survival sake only, to know the facts or truth of universe reality or to believe in God - I do not think. If we believe in love and give it and crave it, we are on the pilgrim's path whether we know it or acknowledge it. Only the knowing embrace of iniquity itself can diminish soul sufficiently to self-erase or become hopeless to eternity. I have doubts as to how many mortals might achieve such a status with such ignorance of reality as the foundation for mortal beliefs. Like most so called athiests....the tendency is to throw the baby of the spiritual reality/truth out with the bathwater of religious hypocracy and paganisms and belligerence and horrific unrighteous dominion, even violence and mayhem and murder and torture. There is much to dismiss and flee in the religiosity of the world unfortunately.

This reality is being modified by the break down of central authority in the institutions of religion as the Spirit of Truth...and love itself, brings the personal nature of religion to the mind of each.

Give hope and joy where you can....and look forward to the times to come....together again...in bliss and harmony.

8)

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Greetings Jim George,

Jim George wrote:
The inclusion of your name was because of my appreciation of your understanding and clear explanations of the Urantia Book in this and other forums. I shall not do it again, I apologize. Since your questions reflect an expectation that I must answer according to your terms I shall respectively refuse to answer until we are better acquainted so as not to further misunderstanding.


No need to apologize. I should apologize. I had a lot of time on my hands yesterday with nothing to do but entertain my philosophical alter-ego. I was simply trying to understand your comment better. I didn't mean for you to think I was starting an interrogation or "battle of the wits".

I don't understand what you mean by answering my question according to my terms. I would hope that your answers are on your terms, about your ideas and your opinions. And I don't think we can become better acquainted without such an exchange. Don't misunderstandings get better after an open discussion? Well, I guess not always, but without discussion I don't see a chance at all. And you don't have to be a scholar to do that.

By the way, on what other forums have you seen my explanations of the Papers? I'd like to know if there's another Rexford out there. Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?

As for the quotes you offered in support of a spiritual approach to Redtread's quest, I have to disagree with the notion that he is being immature, pleasure seeking or selfish. Has he refused salvation and slammed the door to the kingdom? I really don't think so. Honestly, I see him as a sincere truth seeker. I could be wrong, but he hasn't given me any reason to think otherwise.

Regardless of how you feel about Redtread, I agree that the goal of life is to become perfect in our sphere of living like God is perfect in his. Perfection seeking is the same as divinity seeking. We are all trying to become less human and more divine in all areas of our lives, not just the spiritual, but the material and mindal as well, just like Jesus, the mortal man, did.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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I wonder what reasonable and educated mind would NOT reject a god who created a hell for eternal suffering??

Can't wait to meet my atheist friends over yonder and give them a big..."Told you so!" Hahahaha!

:wink: 8)

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Greetings nod,

I don't know how much help I can give you with your dilemma concerning your father, not having a relationship with either of you. All I can do is generalize and draw from my personal experience of similar situations.

You ask: "what is spiritual death? Can you be physically alive and be spiritually dead?" My guess is that you are referring to soul death. Soul death is irrevocable. There's no going back and changing your mind later. If your father's soul is really dead, then there is no hope.

I tend to believe that this is not the case. It sounds to me that your father is stuck in a permanent negative feedback loop. At some point in his life he must have been greatly disappointed in God; God did not come through for him or for someone else and this turned God into a villain. When God is the bad guy, there are no good guys. We need a good God in order to recognize goodness.

To be trapped in a never-ending circle of resentment and grudge holding against Deity is a very murky and dark place to be. You are always a victim and always angry about it. Of course your anger spills out onto everything and everyone else. But there is hope, maybe not in this lifetime, but in the next for sure.

Your father's behavior is very immature, almost ridiculously childish. I don't think God will hold that against him. You have to have a full understanding of your wrong ideas about God before he pulls the plug. Your father obviously does not understand God. God will give him the opportunity to see the truth. At some point, even with a flicker of willingness, your father will get a chance to look at life without the burden of adjutant animal level anger, hurt pride, resentment and animosity. Those emotions are not part of the cosmic mind that he will enjoy in the next life. I'm certain he has at least a few mercy credits left to give him the opportunity to experience that level of reasoning. He may have to await an epochal resurrection, but those mercy credits will still be good.

If I were in your shoes, I would laugh your father off. Be secure in your faith, witness to love and all the positive things in your life. Don't allow him to dwell on the negative; for him it is like quicksand. Point out all that you are grateful for, be an example of hope. I say this because I have an ex with the same mindset. We remain friends, but it is only for the children. Now that they are fully grown with families of their own, I do it for the next generation. One must keep hope alive. Do not allow yourself to be pulled into the vortex; be a reality anchor.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1494
Thanks Rexford,

I have been standing near the vortex my whole life. I won't ever be pulled in. Just getting tired of being close to it, the view is appalling.

I know there are so-called atheists who have done things, bad things, that require God not to exist in order to function while the heart still beats and the lungs still pump air. The terribly frustrating thing about this dilemma, is that forgiveness is available, but it needs to be sincerely desired. I can lead, but I can't make em drink.


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