You are an amazingly eloquent and insightful person, based upon the writings you present.

The Papers address the whereabouts of the soul after irrevocable physical death. They do not explain what happens in those non-irrevocable moments where life and death could go either way. There is one quote which reveals that a certain "reflective phenomenon" can occur at the time consciousness is dimming (when the brain is fizzling out). What do you suppose is being reflected? I would say it is something being experienced at the soul level which is reflected back to the dimming physical level of mind where it is misinterpreted based upon habitual ways of thinking. It seems to me that the same reflective phenomenon can occur during near death experiences and how they are described depends much on the personality's habitual manner of thinking.

Your conventional idea of angels has been derived in the following way: During moments just prior to physical death a reflective phenomenon sometimes occurs in the human mind, and this dimming consciousness seems to visualize something of the form of the attending angel, and this is immediately translated into terms of the habitual concept of angels held in that individual’s mind. 39:5:11

The best description I've heard of for NDEs is that they are a dream state. It's an overall satisfying explanation.

When you sleep your conscious thoughts take form into strange and new subconscious images. A dream that plays over and over is a conflict that needs resolved and isn't getting resolved.

It makes the most sense to me that, upon death, people would enter into a dream state, like a purgatory

This seems to corroborate with every death experience I've read, as a hypothesis for the phenomenon.

But TUB mentions nothing about this dream state, although it does say that we are asleep after death.

Also I don't think it's unusual at all to use death experiences as research material for what life is like after death.

Read the words [Jesus] spoke to the several hundred who witnessed his appearances if you want to know what one who has been there finds important and get a glimpse of what it actually looks like after death.

It's like bigfoot. There's tons of scams, and scant evidence for his existence. But every year hundreds of random people claim sightings. Is the most adequate explanation for Bigfoot phenomenon that all of these people are lying, confused, seeing bears, on drugs, etc?

Or do they see something that distinctly looks like Bigfoot and is obviously not a bear? It doesn't matter either way. The real phenomena that needs to be studied is the fact that people report sightings so often.

But I think it's more likely that thousands of people are reporting at least for the most part what they really experience.

Once the garden variety explanations are deemed insufficient to explain the whole phenomena, then the air is open to make a new hypothesis, and so long as a new hypothesis stands better than any of the previous ones you have a logical argument via abductive reasoning. You don't need to have a knock-down proof of your argument that dispels all doubt, you only need to say that it's more plausible than the other explanations, and I think it's more plausible that people who go on vast significant spiritual journeys after they die and are resuscitated actually do go on those journeys than that they are just having random hallucinations.

If I make a claim either way I'm making a faith claim because the truth is I don't know.

I can prove that it isn't an accurate representation of the afterlife as easily as I can prove that it is.

But it seems reasonable to say that it's more likely that it is, since the definition of the afterlife is what happens after life, that is occurring antecedent to life. Dead people are by definition "after-life."

133:4.4 “You do well to seek for a religion of eternal salvation, but you err to go in quest of such a glorious truth among man-made mysteries and human philosophies. Know you not that the mystery of eternal salvation dwells within your own soul? Do you not know that the God of heaven has sent his spirit to live within you, and that this spirit will lead all truth-loving and God-serving mortals out of this life and through the portals of death up to the eternal heights of light where God waits to receive his children? And never forget: You who know God are the sons of God if you truly yearn to be like him.”

-so, how can those stories by those who claim to experience a NDE present a clearer picture of the after life since they have not had an "after" life?

While the Papers present an eloquent recital of what occurs at death...the separation of soul, material mind, and material body.

Or if the angels or spirit might somehow "grasp" the mortal mind in some way which calms and assures and comforts the mortal mind as it approaches its material end. An end of life ministry so to speak.

Whatever, I don't find the description of the experience by those who do not actually die and pass to be reliable as to the facts of the experience itself...

As to belief and faith.....we do not truly believe what we say or think we believe unless we act upon that belief. The act is faith in what we profess or believe. Our beliefs offer no value or meaning until we demonstrate faith by choices and actions.

A philosophy of living is determined by what we do, not what we believe about what we "should" do but then do not do.

The UB's primary mission, IMO, is to present sufficient facts about the universe and our place in that creation, to help us construct such a philosophy of choosing and living upon sound facts-

There is no philosophy of "thinking" or "believing" that offers any fruits of the spirit....only a philosophy of living.

What is our motive in living? What is our intention upon every intersection of choice? How do such motives and intentions drive our priorities? What are the results of the choices such a motive, intention, and priority deliver?

Are we transferring the very seat of our identity from the material world of our birth to the spiritual realities of the universe - our source and our destiny potential? Are we aligned with reality?

Epochal revelation is delivered to clarify and specify, to reduce confusions and allow the mind to achieve a reality-aligned philosophy for daily living.

Your conventional idea of angels has been derived in the following way: During moments just prior to physical death a reflective phenomenon sometimes occurs in the human mind, and this dimming consciousness seems to visualize something of the form of the attending angel, and this is immediately translated into terms of the habitual concept of angels held in that individual’s mind. 39:5:11

Van, passing off such a comment as suggesting "I'm intelligent, but it's not showing," clearly gives off the vibes of ad hominem.

I think you'd agree that this is a discussion about the topic at hand and that my, or anyone else's intelligence, is irrelevant to the truth or falsity the claims being made.

You mention that these kinds of experiences are not worth studying insisting that they mean altogether nothing. You assert this repeatedly but haven't offered any proofs or evidence, for dismissing NDEs just repeated assertions.

Many people have come back to life after extended periods of heart cessation, prior to the onset of rigor mortis. The fact that you don't see this as death is a personal opinion, and doesn't reflect any medical definition of the word death.

Sorry dude...but not my words...or post.

Greetings fanofVan and all,

I am not sure why everyone thinks Redtread has a problem. To my estimation he's thinking through this topic quite well.



What NDEs possibly present is a clearer picture of the supermaterial level of reality, which is closer to the afterlife than the material level of reality we are all familiar with. For humans, a supermaterial experience is an experience of the morontia level of reality, of which there are many. The lowest form of morontia reality a human has access to is his/her own soul. During a NDE, the material mind may not be available for the consciousness a personality needs to unify its experience; however, the soul-mind is available to the personality. The soul-mind is the supermind level of the Holy Spirit (non-material).

For all of us, the soul is essentially the afterlife. We begin in the next life exactly where we leave off in this life and the morontia life begins the moment the soul is born. The soul is capable of supermortal (supermaterial) functioning, and this functioning continues even during near death.

On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here. 47:3:7
You should understand that the morontia life of an ascending mortal is really initiated on the inhabited worlds at the conception of the soul, at that moment when the creature mind of moral status is indwelt by the spirit Adjuster. And from that moment on, the mortal soul has potential capacity for supermortal function, even for recognition on the higher levels of the morontia spheres of the local universe. 48:6:2



But as you say, near death is not death; it is pre-death. Pre-death is part of the continuous life of the soul. It's not unreasonable to think that some people who have made the decision to survive will experience the life of their own soul during these types of episodes occurring between life and possible death.



Yet we are told that the angels are unable to invade the human mind or inject new or higher concepts into the mind. However, they can intensify a higher concept that has already appeared with the mind. I would say that the higher concept is one that is in the process of being spiritized by the Adjuster and thus a part of the soul. Angels, during NDEs, might be intensifying (in conjunction with the Adjuster) the higher ideal of the soul mind. After all, the angels are the custodians of mind patterns during that time between death and resurrection, being the interpreters of mind and morontia, why wouldn't they also play a role during pre- or near death, a potential morontia mind (soul) experience?

While unable to inject new and higher conceptions into human minds, they often act to intensify some higher ideal which has already appeared within a human intellect. 114:6:19
On the intellectual level they are the correlators of mind and morontia; they are interpreters.113:3:5



Of course these descriptions are not reliable for anyone except the one who had the experience. The material mind cannot describe the morontia level of reality with any accuracy. If the material mind was capable of such a thing, we'd have access to mota, which we don't. But when the material mind ceases to function, it makes sense that another level of mind is capable of taking over, namely the supermind of the soul.



Yet the quote below says that once a belief motivates life and shapes it, it becomes faith, not belief. There are many beliefs that cannot be acted out because they are false; only truth can be acted out. That does not negate the value of a belief in that it represents an attempt to interact with a level of reality that cannot be proven. God considers the belief in blood sacrifice as repulsive, yet he tolerates it because it is an sincere attempt of the primitive mind to comprehend him.

Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. 101:8:1

Not all of our beliefs can be acted out in one lifetime. Many of us have very high ideals and beliefs with no opportunity to express them. We will be given that opportunity in our next life if not in this one, so some beliefs continue to have value. Nothing of value is ever lost, regardless of whether or not we have the chance to act it out as part of our current life experience.



I think that is backwards. Orthopraxis is a religious philosophy of living based upon "correct" conduct, doing "correct" deeds. Jesus came to teach us that salvation is not dependent upon righteous, or "correct", deeds. That was the old way, the way of the Old Testament, the Pharisees and Sadducees. Our salvation is dependent upon faith, which is a level of belief that motivates and shapes one's life.

What we think we "should do", is frequently derived from the conscience, which is not the Adjuster, or even the soul. The conscience is a function of the ego level of mind. I won't go into that. The Old Testament is filled with laws of behavior (deeds), (shoulds and shouldn'ts), none of which determine our salvation.



I think the purpose of the Papers is to present truth. Revelation is about truth. Yes, some facts are contained in the Papers but the purpose is to save time in the work of sorting through the errors of evolutionary thinking. Revelation highlights the difference between spiritual truth and evolutionary facts, particularly when the facts we know are wrong, lacking the benefit of the Prince's and Garden Headquarters.



I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. What do you think the difference between a philosophy of thinking, a philosophy of believing" and a philosophy of living is? Doesn't a philosophy of living include one's thoughts and beliefs? A philosophy of living must include both one's inner and outer experiences in a unified way. Of course a philosophy of thinking can yield fruits of the spirit, particularly if one's thinking is being spiritized by the Adjuster. Our thoughts lead us Godward.

An effective philosophy of living is formed by a combination of cosmic insight and the total of one's emotional reactions to the social and economic environment. 140:4:8
The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. 101:1:3



As far as I know, the only motive/intention in living we humans should have is doing God's will. At every intersection of choice our primary prayer should be, "Nevertheless, your will be done." (146:2:12)

I don't think we should be too concerned about the results of our choices; the results are God's. Likewise, Jesus taught us not to bother with self-examination. God teaches us through spiritual insight and it is a slow process; it grows slowly like the mustard seed. We cannot produce goodness just like we cannot produce love out of a sheer act of will.



I believe we are supposed to transfer the seat of our identity to the soul where we learn faith-trust in God's will. In learning to live religiously, we begin with faith and trust.



I think reality alignment and developing a philosophy of living is more the function of personal revelation than of epochal, although both have a role. It seems to me that we can all have very different beliefs and yet have faith-trust in the same God, the same universe, the same reality, simply approached from different and very personal perspectives.

In Friendship,
Rexford

Belief fails without act....even if it is based on fact/reality.

What we believe does not matter, or not until it is acted upon anyway...and then we shall see if what we believe and then do offers any value or meaning for us....or if we need to adjust, still and further, our motives, intentions, priorities, choices, and acts!

The Papers deliver actionable "to-do's" to propel the believer into making decisions and choices demonstrated by actions with effects to measure the efficacy of the choices made based on the results of the choice.

Every choice. Every act. We may measure, for example, the differences in outcome between self serving and self forgetting service; or between faith and fear; or between love of others and the love of self.

Such distinctions in outcome are experienced by those who believe and those who do not believe, those with knowledge and those without....do we discern the difference of outcome or effect based on the primal cause of motive and intention?

The Papers were not given to believe in but to act upon I think. But then, only the choosing and acting will tell............certainly not the believing. Belief alone puts you over the cliff and to the bottom of the canyon!

Instead of studying "near" death experiences wouldn't it be prudent in this forum to study real spiritual death and real rebirth experiences as presented in the words of Rexford, Fanovan, Larry and noD?

Jesus is the only one with the experience of life and death. Read the words he spoke to the several hundred who witnessed his appearances if you want to know what one who has been there finds important and get a glimpse of what it actually looks like after death.