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In expressing this question and observation I do understand that there will be some who are fully incapable of understanding the situation and will tend to express heavy negative criticism of this post. My question is, I believe, what entity or influence would sponsor dreams which impress the dreamer with an unbelievably powerful experience of beauty during sleep?

We all know that the subconscious mind is very active during sleep and when dreaming. If one were to experience a dream containing elements of such exquisite beauty that they far surpass anything experienced during waking life, where and how do such creations originate?

The source of beauty is certainly not the subconscious mind, is it not? Assuming that a person has lived a large portion of one's life in accordance with the thought adjuster's leadings and is well accustomed to the character of such guidance, if one can in no way detect that characteristic guidance within the dream from which such indescribable beauty was present, what may be the sponsor of that experience?

Is beauty solely experienced by personality? If that is not necessarily the case one might consider that the Unqualified Absolute may express itself to a faith son. Or possibly some derived entity working on behalf of the Unqualified Absolute?

Whatever the origin, such an experience creates anew a wonderful appreciation and apprehension of the amazing possibilities that we are to experience during our eternal career.
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This quote is telling, Riktare:

...The existence of beauty implies the presence of appreciative creature mind just as certainly as the fact of progressive evolution indicates the dominance of the Supreme Mind. Beauty is the intellectual recognition of the harmonious time-space synthesis of the far-flung diversification of phenomenal reality, all of which stems from pre-existent and eternal oneness.56:10:11 (647.2)

But the soul must be involved because beauty is a divine value, and it is the soul that feels value.

...Mind knows quantity, reality, meanings. But quality—values—is felt. That which feels is the mutual creation of mind, which knows, and the associated spirit, which reality-izes.111:3.6 (1219.5)

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Thanks for those references Rick. I was telling a friend about the experience and after a bit of thought declared that dreams, maybe often, express the real wishes of the soul. Or the fears or vulnerabilities of the soul if such is the case. I believe we are told that the adjuster does its most effective work when a human host is sleeping. So there is apparently some superconscious activity that takes place in addition to the normally heavy subconscious activity when we sleep.
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In expressing this question and observation I do understand that there will be some who are fully incapable of understanding the situation and will tend to express heavy negative criticism of this post. My question is, I believe, what entity or influence would sponsor dreams which impress the dreamer with an unbelievably powerful experience of beauty during sleep?


No negativity from here, Riktare. In fact, I think you're pretty fortunate to have had such a nice experience. As you have already mentioned, the superconscious can also be a part of the dream state, too. Thanks for sharing. I hope the experience makes you happy.

I once had a dream of flying through space - real outer-space-type flying. And although it was dark and I was not seeing much except stars, I remember being warm, and feeling completely safe, even though I was alone and not in a ship or anything. I have remembered that dream for years, and am always grateful for it. It seemed to me that the main purpose of it was to help me feel safe and positive about the journey to the next worlds.
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Does the soul experience fear I wonder? I would not think so. Does morontial mind know anxiety or fear? Of what? Confusions and uncertainties? Interesting.

Can the subconscious/unconscious levels of mind be the source of truth? Probably. A pooled source of memories and thoughts and hopes and fears. But the recognition and appreciation and impression and experience of beauty is unlikely to be unconscious or subconscious I think. And the TA and work of the TA can surely be a source of truth and goodness as well as beauty.

As to your question "...what entity or influence would sponsor dreams which impress the dreamer with an unbelievably powerful experience of beauty during sleep?". That is a mighty short list of choices I think. Dreams are either originated from our subconscious storage memories I think...or they are a result of the TA's mind ministry while we sleep. Is there another choice? I don't think so.

Isn't beauty the experience of and/or experience of reality in a format of personal recognition and appreciation? And like truth and goodness isn't beauty's source greater than self but still a subjective experience of personal meaning and value?

I sometimes think of truth, beauty, and goodness as God's bread crumbs leading us on the righteous path through the travails of life to the place of promise ahead. No matter the shadows or uncertainties, to follow truth, beauty, and goodness always leads us toward safety and home.

Regarding dreams, the UB is very clear...we are to be highly suspicious of "messages" or "instructions" or "truth" we think we might have received. However, it is also true that we often do receive insight or inspiration related to some problem or confusion we are considering while sleeping and any sleep experience, including dreams, in which we experience beauty and goodness should be considered a rewarding and pleasant inspiration I think. There is an appreciation response with beauty and goodness that can only be positive I think.

Thanks for sharing Riktare. :smile:

The dream state is discussed a great deal in the UB. Very interesting. So important in so many ways and results and yet so fraught with fictions, fantasy, misdirection, misunderstanding, and misinterpretations!!!

keyword search for dream, dreams, dreamed, and dreaming: (for some reason, you must change from "exact match" to "Any Search Words" at top of page for results - apologies but cannot fix otherwise)

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

"dreams": https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

Paper 86 especially describes the human/social evolutionary progress achieved by the mortal dream state!

The danger and warning:

100:5.6 (1099.4) If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster. The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

100:5.7 (1099.5) In contrast with conversion-seeking, the better approach to the morontia zones of possible contact with the Thought Adjuster would be through living faith and sincere worship, wholehearted and unselfish prayer. Altogether too much of the uprush of the memories of the unconscious levels of the human mind has been mistaken for divine revelations and spirit leadings.

110:5.2 (1208.1) Man’s dream experiences, that disordered and disconnected parade of the un-co-ordinated sleeping mind, present adequate proof of the failure of the Adjusters to harmonize and associate the divergent factors of the mind of man. The Adjusters simply cannot, in a single lifetime, arbitrarily co-ordinate and synchronize two such unlike and diverse types of thinking as the human and the divine. When they do, as they sometimes have, such souls are translated directly to the mansion worlds without the necessity of passing through the experience of death. *

110:5.3 (1208.2) During the slumber season the Adjuster attempts to achieve only that which the will of the indwelt personality has previously fully approved by the decisions and choosings which were made during times of fully wakeful consciousness, and which have thereby become lodged in the realms of the supermind, the liaison domain of human and divine interrelationship.

110:5.4 (1208.3) While their mortal hosts are asleep, the Adjusters try to register their creations in the higher levels of the material mind, and some of your grotesque dreams indicate their failure to make efficient contact. The absurdities of dream life not only testify to pressure of unexpressed emotions but also bear witness to the horrible distortion of the representations of the spiritual concepts presented by the Adjusters. Your own passions, urges, and other innate tendencies translate themselves into the picture and substitute their unexpressed desires for the divine messages which the indwellers are endeavoring to put into the psychic records during unconscious sleep.

110:5.5 (1208.4) It is extremely dangerous to postulate as to the Adjuster content of the dream life. The Adjusters do work during sleep, but your ordinary dream experiences are purely physiologic and psychologic phenomena. Likewise, it is hazardous to attempt the differentiation of the Adjusters’ concept registry from the more or less continuous and conscious reception of the dictations of mortal conscience. These are problems which will have to be solved through individual discrimination and personal decision. But a human being would do better to err in rejecting an Adjuster’s expression through believing it to be a purely human experience than to blunder into exalting a reaction of the mortal mind to the sphere of divine dignity. Remember, the influence of a Thought Adjuster is for the most part, though not wholly, a superconscious experience.

Despite the warnings posted above Riktare, I do find and believe that whatever inspires us and gives us insight while sleeping and dreaming is a very positive thing. As I stated previously, I think it is the belief in messages that is dangerous, but not anything like what you describe here. No matter its source, I agree that which inspires us and fills us with hope and appreciation and contentment comes from a single original source....that's the First Source and Center. I cannot be certain of its immediate source in mind but its origin and its value is not subject to any great dispute I do not think.

:wink: :biggrin: :idea: 8)

I am curious as to why you titled this topic as "Superhuman". I think all human experiences are human enough. To say you had a superhuman experience is to claim that someone else HAD the experience - a superhuman - or that your soul experienced your dream or you are yourself otherwise superhuman!! The question you actually ask though is about the source of the human dream I think. Hmmmm…..

Keyword search for "superhuman":

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

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fanofVan wrote:
And like truth and goodness isn't beauty's source greater than self but still a subjective experience of personal meaning and value?


The source of beauty is not subjective.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
And like truth and goodness isn't beauty's source greater than self but still a subjective experience of personal meaning and value?


The source of beauty is not subjective.


Yes...exactly what I said. The source of truth, beauty, and goodness is "greater than self"! Our personal experience of truth, beauty, and goodness is subjective.

So....we agree!!

:wink: :idea: :!: 8)

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Riktare wrote:
Is beauty solely experienced by personality? If that is not necessarily the case one might consider that the Unqualified Absolute may express itself to a faith son. Or possibly some derived entity working on behalf of the Unqualified Absolute.


I think that before you attempt to identify beings or forces that may assist human perception while dreaming, and yes the experience of beauty may be subjective to each individual whereas the source of beauty I contend to be objective, but isn't this really an issue of spiritual receptivity? The more open to all truth one becomes, the more perceptible beauty should be, in every facet of the human experience including subconsciously, in the innate/intuitive recognition of correspondences.

Solely experienced by personalities? But then the array of personalities registered in the universe of universe is replete, expanding, and also is every being's personality beautiful. Beauty is not necessarily the experience of vibrant or smelly manifestations, but also an "inner experience", an experience of the morontia being.

Whereas we may commonly identify beauty by its manifestations, i.e. a flower in bloom, the experience of beauty is found through the experience of embrace. Although I am a prideful person, I cannot discount that the "landing spheres" that operate on the peripherial of Paradise, as satellites, are called, respectively, "the Bosom of the Father", "the Bosom of the Son", "the Bosom of the Spirit"; which implies something of the actual experience of beauty. How to beings depart and land, as on Paradise? Almost as an exudation, a mammalial excretion (even though this may be a crude comparison) forthwith from the existential Deities. But it shows how beauty should be interpreted as "an experience of the heart".

And that experience is necessary when we consider that as ascenders, we first start with the love of self, and the love of the world Urantia, and gradually/eventually proceeding into the love of all Beings, and appreciation for the universe of universes. Beauty, therefore helps one to attune to the original patterns of the grand universe. By becoming beautiful, you become like all things that erstwhile are beautiful, and this in the heart-experience. In the stories of the olden testament, when personal truth convictions outweigh the feelingstatus of the human individual, the men of old were known to "smite their breast", willingly destroy the beauty that exists inside because of the disconcernation within the mind of such individuals. The crumbling of outward order conflicts with the inner experiences, of one who knows or recognises truth.

Well, what actually happens while we dream, to produce this enhanced experience of beauty? I believe, again, this is all an issue of spiritual receptivity. After a long day's labour, the soul subdues the body, in terms of providing the body the need to find rest. The exhaustion of active potentials during the day allows for the expansion of values, currently held within that being's mind. And we receive the experience of beauty to become enticed and loyal to a beautiful God, so that new possibilities can be joined to human actions during the day. Eventually, by becoming beautiful, we learn to appreciate the mortal tabernacle for the purpose it served each of us, while embracing the hereafter, the status of ourselves as totally disembodied spirits.

So I am afraid that I cannot at this time explain the levels of the human mind, and the status or vectors of their operation. I cannot explain the harmony that exists between every level of the human mind. But if the individuating Father Fragment performs "manipulations" that are in accordance with the human will, "adjustments" in accordance with human understanding, then it should be theorized that one should allow God to coordinate and harmonize each separate aspect of the human consciousness. How could that occur while the rational intellect is awakened, and actionable judgments are identified on a level of static valuations? The beauty of the human mind, in the auspices of spiritual receptivity, is to allow God to rearrange or rehighlight the set of experiences or valued facts within the human mind, so that a greater harmony may be forged.

Actually, "the reversion directors" and many other beings fully support the activities of the human/morontial mind while that is said to be in a restive state. The purpose of dreams is to inspire the mind of man to fulfill the will of God, according to that one's postultimate personality, even though progress seems like a languishing journey which proceeds at a turtle's pace.

But I would regard any agency that is employed to conduct one's personal dreaming, should be seen as secondary compared with the status or reality of the human individual's spiritual receptivity, since I believe this to be the primary factor that would enhance lucidity of dreams, or the beauty experienced therein.

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Just to be clear...in the search for and discussion of any potential "entity or influence" that "would sponsor dreams" - the reversion directors would certainly not be considered as any such potential entity or influence of mortal dreams.

Indeed, so far as I understand, there are only two possible sources - the mortal/material brain or mind and the Thought Adjuster. I would be most interested in any text posted here which might infer or substantiate that ANY other being, agency, agent, entity, or influence might possibly invade the mind and deliver any visions, voices, dreams, messages, or other content while either sleeping or awake.

The mind of mortals is perfectly capable of producing all manner of content for itself. And the TA is the gatekeeper and coordinator and voice who determines and delivers the ministry of all of the actual and potential mind Spirits. So far as I understand, there is no other potential source of dreams or ministry in mind. So I am very curious as to the identity of these claimed "... many other beings fully support the activities of the human/morontial mind while that is said to be in a restive state." Text please!! Such claims....and no supporting text?? Reversion directors have no access to any mind except the conscious mind of someone in their presence.

48:4.8 (548.3) But the reversion directors of the realms are not concerned exclusively with depicting the high humor of the various orders of intelligent beings; they are also occupied with the leadership of diversion, spiritual recreation and morontia entertainment. And in this connection they have the hearty co-operation of the celestial artisans.

48:4.9 (548.4) The reversion directors themselves are not a created group; they are a recruited corps embracing beings ranging from the Havona natives down through the messenger hosts of space and the ministering spirits of time to the morontia progressors from the evolutionary worlds. All are volunteers, giving themselves to the work of assisting their fellows in the achievement of thought change and mind rest, for such attitudes are most helpful in recuperating depleted energies.

48:4.10 (548.5) When partially exhausted by the efforts of attainment, and while awaiting the reception of new energy charges, there is agreeable pleasure in living over again the enactments of other days and ages. The early experiences of the race or the order are restful to reminisce. And that is exactly why these artists are called reversion directors—they assist in reverting the memory to a former state of development or to a less experienced status of being.

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Any beings who assist in the restorative phases of energy intake are welcome in my dreams personally.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Any beings who assist in the restorative phases of energy intake are welcome in my dreams personally.


Welcome or not...doesn't happen....just sayin'... :roll:

We are here to discuss the Urantia Papers Stephen...not your fantasies and inventions and fictional claims. Please consider posting actual text which support your claims along with your claims to provide some semblance of relevance.

The issue under question is what sources of dream contents might there be...according to the UB?

I'm not sure why the topic is located here in Abner's Corner for sensitive and controversial topics....but here we are.

8)

Beauty delivers meaning and value to mind!

2:7.8 (43.1) The discernment of supreme beauty is the discovery and integration of reality: The discernment of the divine goodness in the eternal truth, that is ultimate beauty. Even the charm of human art consists in the harmony of its unity.

2:7.9 (43.2) The great mistake of the Hebrew religion was its failure to associate the goodness of God with the factual truths of science and the appealing beauty of art. As civilization progressed, and since religion continued to pursue the same unwise course of overemphasizing the goodness of God to the relative exclusion of truth and neglect of beauty, there developed an increasing tendency for certain types of men to turn away from the abstract and dissociated concept of isolated goodness. The overstressed and isolated morality of modern religion, which fails to hold the devotion and loyalty of many twentieth-century men, would rehabilitate itself if, in addition to its moral mandates, it would give equal consideration to the truths of science, philosophy, and spiritual experience, and to the beauties of the physical creation, the charm of intellectual art, and the grandeur of genuine character achievement.

2:7.10 (43.3) The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness. Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love.

2:7.11 (43.4) All truth—material, philosophic, or spiritual—is both beautiful and good. All real beauty—material art or spiritual symmetry—is both true and good. All genuine goodness—whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry—is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience. Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

2:7.12 (43.5) Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty. The real purpose of all universe education is to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience. Reality is finite on the human level, infinite and eternal on the higher and divine levels.

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fanofVan wrote:
Does the soul experience fear I wonder? I would not think so. Does morontial mind know anxiety or fear? Of what? Confusions and uncertainties? Interesting.


Not animal fear. But I imagine there must be a supermaterial counterpart to fear. I believe the soul is often conscientious. It must be to be born on the basis of moral decisions. To be conscientious is to care deeply about doing or bringing about something right. So I imagine the counterpart to fear must be something like intense concern or an awareness of that "gentle pressure from above". That and an aversion to doing something wrong or unsuitable. The classic reoccurring dream that might have a component of that is being late for work or class and finally arriving in your pajamas :)

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Can the subconscious/unconscious levels of mind be the source of truth? Probably. A pooled source of memories and thoughts and hopes and fears. But the recognition and appreciation and impression and experience of beauty is unlikely to be unconscious or subconscious I think. And the TA and work of the TA can surely be a source of truth and goodness as well as beauty.


Yes, I agree. I think it's implausible that the subconscious mind, alone, can comprehend beauty so well that it can invent a dream image that induces the experience of profound beauty (which evidently the soul experiences).

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As to your question "...what entity or influence would sponsor dreams which impress the dreamer with an unbelievably powerful experience of beauty during sleep?". That is a mighty short list of choices I think. Dreams are either originated from our subconscious storage memories I think...or they are a result of the TA's mind ministry while we sleep. Is there another choice? I don't think so.


I don't really know. I imagine an angel can effect a change of mental orientation in such a way that sponsors an experience of truth, beauty or goodness, even when sleeping.

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Isn't beauty the experience of and/or experience of reality in a format of personal recognition and appreciation? And like truth and goodness isn't beauty's source greater than self but still a subjective experience of personal meaning and value?


I think so, yes. I'm quite sure that it was the soul that experienced the beauty. But something else provided the "architecture" or patterns to the imagery that triggered that experience. That something else is what makes me wonder.

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I sometimes think of truth, beauty, and goodness as God's bread crumbs leading us on the righteous path through the travails of life to the place of promise ahead. No matter the shadows or uncertainties, to follow truth, beauty, and goodness always leads us toward safety and home.


That's my feeling too. Sometimes there is a recognition or memory during times of a daytime experience of deja vu that the adjuster, or what I take to be the adjuster, had been performing some kind of rehearsal, training or preparation during the night, perhaps even many years earlier.

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I am curious as to why you titled this topic as "Superhuman". I think all human experiences are human enough. To say you had a superhuman experience is to claim that someone else HAD the experience - a superhuman - or that your soul experienced your dream or you are yourself otherwise superhuman!! The question you actually ask though is about the source of the human dream I think. Hmmmm…..


Supermaterial might have been a better word, in terms of the experience. But my impression and reasoning was that the subconscious (human) mind could not have invented and expressed the "architectural" elements on its own that triggered the experience. I'm sure the conscious mind could not have done that either. Hence the feeling that something "superhuman" was involved.
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I'm not sure why the topic is located here in Abner's Corner for sensitive and controversial topics....but here we are.


The topic feels sensitive in being a personal experience. At the moderator's discretion it could be moved to Spiritual Experiences.
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At your request, Riktare, this topic will be moved to "Spiritual Experiences."
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Riktare, was there any sense of a purpose, or lesson, in your experience? Perhaps you were just given a gift of these dreams for your pleasure alone, but maybe something deeper is meant. Is there relevance to your relationship with the people in your life?

I think many of us have been blessed with brilliant spiritual messages unique to our natures. One indelible memory:

I had made it a practice some years ago to read from A Course In Miracles early in my office at work, before anyone else arrived. I was intensely focused on whatever I was reading at the moment when an odor of such complexity and depth permeated my awareness. It confounded me, elated me, and left me in awe. It lasted about ten minutes and faded away. Just that one "episode" would have been enough to last a life-time, but I wanted more of it.

I had a long commute to work and home, no traffic, mind on neutral - and the remembrance of that experience in the office came to me. I quieted all my thoughts and wished for that odor, that incredible incense, to be present again. And it did, lasting a few minutes, and fading away. For about ten days, driving alone and wondering "can this happen again?" I was blessed with it again. I began to feel a little guilty, as in, why am I given this gift? So it stopped, of course.

I think these experiences are God's way of telling us He loves us, to keep our purpose strong, and await the wonders ahead.
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