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Quite a lot of great insights brother...

What is your perspective on practices that alter our perception like intense breathwork, yoga etc.? Is there any value in reaching these enigmatic but quite ecstatic states of consciousness? Entering Samadhi, having a Satori glimpse... What really are those in relation to true spiritual forces and TA? I think experiencing and integrating them could be also connected with true worship. I am assuming balancing them out with social service and wholehearted connection to reality afterwards. O:)


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Rhinodonter wrote:
Quite a lot of great insights brother...

What is your perspective on practices that alter our perception like intense breathwork, yoga etc.? Is there any value in reaching these enigmatic but quite ecstatic states of consciousness? Entering Samadhi, having a Satori glimpse... What really are those in relation to true spiritual forces and TA? I think experiencing and integrating them could be also connected with true worship. I am assuming balancing them out with social service and wholehearted connection to reality afterwards. O:)


I think any practice which calms and focuses mind helps approach our superconsciousness. Calm contemplation helps clear the mind for prayer, worship, and reception of insight and revelation. It also supports self revelation or the mind's ability to resolve conundrum and paradox and apply reason to life's perplexities.

Such states of mind and being are not really enigmatic or ecstatic I do not think. Certainly drugs and extreme fasting or exhaustion are inferior and ineffective at delivering true transformation and transcendence, but may offer some glimpse into the need for personal change and evolutionary progress.

Satori and samadhi are true paradigm shifts of reality perspective which encourages growth and understanding and empathy...and humility. I think most people have experienced satori, a moment of brilliant clarity and reality alignment perspective. The state of nirvana is difficult to maintain for long as the human conditions of desire and suffering so easily interrupt such a state of being. But true worship does deliver such peace and release.

But these are not mystical states really and quite human if ego can be tamed or contained sufficiently.

Whatever leads to sincere prayer and opens the mind to our Deity Connections is good and productive I think.

8)


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100:5.6 (1099.4) If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster. The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

100:5.7 (1099.5) In contrast with conversion-seeking, the better approach to the morontia zones of possible contact with the Thought Adjuster would be through living faith and sincere worship, wholehearted and unselfish prayer. Altogether too much of the uprush of the memories of the unconscious levels of the human mind has been mistaken for divine revelations and spirit leadings.

100:5.8 (1099.6) There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

100:5.9 (1099.7) The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

100:5.10 (1100.1) The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one’s Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus’ life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.

100:5.11 (1100.2) However favorable may have been the conditions for mystic phenomena, it should be clearly understood that Jesus of Nazareth never resorted to such methods for communion with the Paradise Father. Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions.

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fanofVan wrote:

Such states of mind and being are not really enigmatic or ecstatic I do not think. Certainly drugs and extreme fasting or exhaustion are inferior and ineffective at delivering true transformation and transcendence, but may offer some glimpse into the need for personal change and evolutionary progress.



In referring to enigmatic and ecstatic I don't necessary mean short calming meditations but rather intense breathwork for example SOMA breath that produces similar effects to psychodelic plants partially due to changing brain waves to gamma and by forcing the body to produce certain hormones like anandamide or maybe even DMT. These states can be truly otherworldly blissful when one feel subjective boundlessness and profound unity with the universe. I wonder if these bring anything of value and are they worth pursuing. Many people had life changing experiences as a result but if one already is a man of faith maybe it adds nothing. Seems kinda forced. It's interesting that our body has this capability and this potential is even reflected on a chemical level. Maybe we should investigate this in the same category as psychodelics. They seem to produce healing benefits for many but they are increasingly being used as a tool for spiritual growth and the value of it is questionable.


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I am not familiar but it looks very interesting and another breathing meditation discipline with some associated emotional healing related to personal suffering relief.

https://www.soma-zen.com/

Care of the body's physical health is certainly important for mind function. So fasting and sleep deprivation may deliver altered states of consciousness, but not truly healthy or helpful I don't think.

Took lots of psychedelics in the 70's. Some to profound and lasting effect. More that was ill advised escapism and meaningless amusement. Neither of those is recommended.

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I find that breathwork practices are quite powerfull and can deliver deep centeredness coupled with blissful, joyful feelings that are very conducive for prayer and worship on top.
Flirting with trancelike states just for the sake of having some visual, psychedelic experiences for entertainment shoudn't be confused with true spiritual experience that fosters further religious living.
I think that a certain method for example a breathwork rutine is a very valuable tool for health and wellbeing and can be practiced before worshipful meditation that constitute supreme spiritual practice. It's like invigorating the body and activating the vessel in preparation for our living, creative communion with God.


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I wonder where is the line between experiencing contact with TA through those practices, while reaching samadhi like states in superconsciousness and falling into subconscious trans like states and getting a little away from God fragment? My lead is that difference is because of intention. One should stay alert and keeping in check the personal aspect of the practice (expressing gratitude, worshipfull contemplation) and avoiding falling into mindless trans.

Also we can touch upon yoga a little bit. The UB doesn't say much about it.

94:7:2 (1035.2) Gautama formulated those theories which grew into the philosophy of Buddhism after six years of the futile practice of yoga.

Does it portray yoga as completely futile endeavor or just indicating that in the life of Buddha it was futile?
As I understand yoga means union and its practices are aiming for reaching the highest human potential and TA fusion.
The techniques it has developed are tools that are helpful for overall health, wellbeing and growth but of course are not necessary and there are many ways.


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91:7.5 (1000.6) The practical test of all these strange religious experiences of mysticism, ecstasy, and inspiration is to observe whether these phenomena cause an individual:

91:7.6 (1000.7) 1. To enjoy better and more complete physical health.

91:7.7 (1000.8 ) 2. To function more efficiently and practically in his mental life.

91:7.8 (1000.9) 3. More fully and joyfully to socialize his religious experience.

91:7.9 (1000.10) 4. More completely to spiritualize his day-by-day living while faithfully discharging the commonplace duties of routine mortal existence.

91:7.10 (1001.1) 5. To enhance his love for, and appreciation of, truth, beauty, and goodness.

91:7.11 (1001.2) 6. To conserve currently recognized social, moral, ethical, and spiritual values.

91:7.12 (1001.3) 7. To increase his spiritual insight—God-consciousness.


I think this is very much true and applicable to Samadhi experiences as well. All yogic strivings and attainments should be filtered through these guidelines.
Our bodies are capable of higher functioning, our glands are waiting to produce higher hormonal secretions to reflect our spiritual state and bliss is available to anyone. If Gods natural creations like the tabernacle of flesh is created with this inherent possibility why not claim it? It could be said that even in this mortal life ecstasy is a birthright of every child of God. Everyone who would be given an option to feel blissful day in and day out would want it. People just doesn't know that this is a real possibility and they settle for little pleasures and compulsive dopamine addictions. Faith, religious living, health, blissfulness all can and should go hand in hand. I bet that in a more enlightened era of light and life this is a common knowledge and experience of the collective. O:)


Last edited by Rhinodonter on Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:55 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I think the point of 94:7.2 is that truth, spiritual growth, wisdom, and enlightenment are mindal. Yoga can, at best, facilitate a healthy body (material temple) for the mind to become spiritized, but the body does not itself spiritize the mind or soul.

One may be a yogi and yet not be enlightened or have a rich and progressive religious experience.

It is the philosophy of living and the Deity Connections within mind that delivers those motives and priorities which determines and defines our religious experience. The choices we make amidst the hammer and anvil delivers the experiential wisdom we glean therefrom and thereby.

The philosophy of the Buddha was not delivered by yoga. Which does not mean yoga is without value in the pursuit of health, longevity, focus, and the calm elimination of anxiety.

Or so I understand the UB to teach.

8)

"....It is to the mind of perfect poise, housed in a body of clean habits, stabilized neural energies, and balanced chemical function—when the physical, mental, and spiritual powers are in triune harmony of development—that a maximum of light and truth can be imparted with a minimum of temporal danger or risk to the real welfare of such a being."

111:1.3 (1216.4) Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves.

111:1.4 (1216.5) Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.

111:1.6 (1217.1) Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival. The Adjuster bestowed upon man is, in the last analysis, impervious to evil and incapable of sin, but mortal mind can actually be twisted, distorted, and rendered evil and ugly by the sinful machinations of a perverse and self-seeking human will. Likewise can this mind be made noble, beautiful, true, and good—actually great—in accordance with the spirit-illuminated will of a God-knowing human being.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:29 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Yoga and meditation (and their associated breathing techniques) help with the eight fold path and pursuit of mental stability and the purification of mind from the poisons of anxiety and fear and greed and jealousy and materialism and all related mind-morbidities which are discordant retardants of the spiritual experience.

94:8.8 (1036.10) Closely linked to the doctrine of suffering and the escape therefrom was the philosophy of the Eightfold Path: right views, aspirations, speech, conduct, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, and contemplation. It was not Gautama’s intention to attempt to destroy all effort, desire, and affection in the escape from suffering; rather was his teaching designed to picture to mortal man the futility of pinning all hope and aspirations entirely on temporal goals and material objectives. It was not so much that love of one’s fellows should be shunned as that the true believer should also look beyond the associations of this material world to the realities of the eternal future.


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That makes sense...

I think suffering is huge cause in terms of luring people into practices that helps relieve it. For example if I was to feel amazing I wouldn't even think about doing those in the first place.
Personal wellbeing, peacefullnes, happiness those are the most important goals for everyone whether they realize it or not. We could say "no, the most important goal for me is to do Fathers will and help Him achieve this grand plan". But we woudn't really want to do it if it was not at the same time blissful endeavor. Everything we do or attempt to do is to allow ourselves to feel good. If in some weird hypothetical scenario doing Gods will would be equal to not feeling good and joyfull we woudn't want to do it. Fortunately thats not the case and bliss is a side effect of our nature and progressive cosmic attainment. Its also no coincidence that service to others greatly contribute to this supernal personal satisfaction. O:)


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94:9.6 (1038.4) Buddhism is a living, growing religion today because it succeeds in conserving many of the highest moral values of its adherents. It promotes calmness and self-control, augments serenity and happiness, and does much to prevent sorrow and mourning. Those who believe this philosophy live better lives than many who do not.

8)

101:2.8 (1106.7) Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, logic the proof of philosophy, but revelation is validated only by human experience. Science yields knowledge; religion yields happiness; philosophy yields unity; revelation confirms the experiential harmony of this triune approach to universal reality.

8)

103:5.5 (1134.3) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higher self (divine spirit) are co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will of the integrating and supervising personality. The mind of evolutionary man is ever confronted with the intricate problem of refereeing the contest between the natural expansion of emotional impulses and the moral growth of unselfish urges predicated on spiritual insight—genuine religious reflection.

8)

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8)

159:3.9 (1766.5) In preaching the gospel of the kingdom, you are simply teaching friendship with God. And this fellowship will appeal alike to men and women in that both will find that which most truly satisfies their characteristic longings and ideals. Tell my children that I am not only tender of their feelings and patient with their frailties, but that I am also ruthless with sin and intolerant of iniquity. I am indeed meek and humble in the presence of my Father, but I am equally and relentlessly inexorable where there is deliberate evil-doing and sinful rebellion against the will of my Father in heaven.

159:3.10 (1766.6) You shall not portray your teacher as a man of sorrows. Future generations shall know also the radiance of our joy, the buoyance of our good will, and the inspiration of our good humor. We proclaim a message of good news which is infectious in its transforming power. Our religion is throbbing with new life and new meanings. Those who accept this teaching are filled with joy and in their hearts are constrained to rejoice evermore. Increasing happiness is always the experience of all who are certain about God.

159:3.11 (1766.7) Teach all believers to avoid leaning upon the insecure props of false sympathy. You cannot develop strong characters out of the indulgence of self-pity; honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery. Extend sympathy to the brave and courageous while you withhold overmuch pity from those cowardly souls who only halfheartedly stand up before the trials of living. Offer not consolation to those who lie down before their troubles without a struggle. Sympathize not with your fellows merely that they may sympathize with you in return.

159:3.12 (1766.8) When my children once become self-conscious of the assurance of the divine presence, such a faith will expand the mind, ennoble the soul, reinforce the personality, augment the happiness, deepen the spirit perception, and enhance the power to love and be loved.

159:3.13 (1767.1) Teach all believers that those who enter the kingdom are not thereby rendered immune to the accidents of time or to the ordinary catastrophes of nature. Believing the gospel will not prevent getting into trouble, but it will insure that you shall be unafraid when trouble does overtake you. If you dare to believe in me and wholeheartedly proceed to follow after me, you shall most certainly by so doing enter upon the sure pathway to trouble. I do not promise to deliver you from the waters of adversity, but I do promise to go with you through all of them.


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Rhinodonter wrote:
I wonder where is the line between experiencing contact with TA through those practices, while reaching samadhi like states in superconsciousness and falling into subconscious trans like states and getting a little away from God fragment? My lead is that difference is because of intention. One should stay alert and keeping in check the personal aspect of the practice (expressing gratitude, worshipfull contemplation) and avoiding falling into mindless trans.


So...the UB warns us about our personal awareness of TA ministry and contact. It is mostly unlikely and dangerous to embrace. The human mind is powerful and quite capable of delusion and illusion and invention and mythology and self aggrandization.

I think the point is to remove obstacles and open the connection to Deity by a quiet and reflective mind by prayer and meditation in a method of sharing our experience of being with the source and center of Being.

We are told the Becoming is itself quite unconscious as is all growth and wisdom and spiritization. We can be and are conscious of the wisdom and growth gained and achieved over time, but not so much the growth in time.

100:3.7 (1097.4) Man cannot cause growth, but he can supply favorable conditions. Growth is always unconscious, be it physical, intellectual, or spiritual. Love thus grows; it cannot be created, manufactured, or purchased; it must grow. Evolution is a cosmic technique of growth. Social growth cannot be secured by legislation, and moral growth is not had by improved administration. Man may manufacture a machine, but its real value must be derived from human culture and personal appreciation. Man’s sole contribution to growth is the mobilization of the total powers of his personality—living faith.

8)

100:5.6 (1099.4) If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster. The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

100:5.7 (1099.5) In contrast with conversion-seeking, the better approach to the morontia zones of possible contact with the Thought Adjuster would be through living faith and sincere worship, wholehearted and unselfish prayer. Altogether too much of the uprush of the memories of the unconscious levels of the human mind has been mistaken for divine revelations and spirit leadings.

100:5.8 (1099.6) There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

100:5.9 (1099.7) The characteristics of the mystical state are diffusion of consciousness with vivid islands of focal attention operating on a comparatively passive intellect. All of this gravitates consciousness toward the subconscious rather than in the direction of the zone of spiritual contact, the superconscious. Many mystics have carried their mental dissociation to the level of abnormal mental manifestations.

100:5.10 (1100.1) The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one’s Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus’ life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.

100:5.11 (1100.2) However favorable may have been the conditions for mystic phenomena, it should be clearly understood that Jesus of Nazareth never resorted to such methods for communion with the Paradise Father. Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions.


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