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 Post subject: what about Repentance?
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My first thought is that God does not need our repentance. We need it. He sees through all our resistance and knows whereof it comes, and forgives it already.

It remains our task to see through all our charades, and to attend to all our good intentions in this, our first life. Here on earth we may have achieved survival status while leaving much work to be done in the morontia life.

I highly recommend Paper 112 on personality survival. Here's a quote:

112:5.6 (1233.2)
Though the cosmic circles of personality growth must eventually be attained, if, through no fault of your own, the accidents of time and the handicaps of material existence prevent your mastering these levels on your native planet, if your intentions and desires are of survival value, there are issued the decrees of probation extension. You will be afforded additional time in which to prove yourself.

112:5.7 (1233.3) If ever there is doubt as to the advisability of advancing a human identity to the mansion worlds, the universe governments invariably rule in the personal interests of that individual; they unhesitatingly advance such a soul to the status of a transitional being, while they continue their observations of the emerging morontia intent and spiritual purpose. Thus divine justice is certain of achievement, and divine mercy is accorded further opportunity for extending its ministry.


This, to me, is another example of God's love and mercy. But I don't want to be a "transitional being". Do any of us? Yet what work are we doing on ourselves now to remove all doubt as to our desire to see the face of God, and to speed our transition from the morontial education to the spiritual worlds of eternity?
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Thanks gizmo! Important issues related. This term, as defined in the Papers, is a stark contradiction to the Christian beliefs about sin and redemption and salvation and survival. And also the contrast between the Jesusonian Gospel and the very humanized, paganized, and Paulinian gospel about Jesus.

The issue goes to the myth of original sin and racial guilt (the human race), and the falsehood of inherent mortal sin or the sinful nature (which does not exist) of humans. It also includes the nature of God. And the Divine connections to humans. And the relationship between God's children in time and the paternal affection they enjoy.

The UB teaches that it is indeed as you say. God does not need nor require our repentance. And no knowledge, belief, act, or declarations are needed by any children of time, including mortals, to receive God's love. God's love cannot be earned or borrowed or loaned or stolen or begun or ended or received by repentance and neither does God give or withhold love based on repentance. According to the Papers.

Repentance is the act of acknowledgement of our deliberate, intentional, and willful disloyalty and sin against God. It is the contrition of responsibility for such knowing disobedience. It is the restoration of connection we have severed by deliberate disobedience and sin.

Christians teach we must repent original sin, the sins of our fathers, and our sinful nature... in addition to personal transgressions of arbitrary creeds, rules, and Holy Book taboos and multiple superstitions... in addition to any actual willful sins we commit. Christians are guilty as hell about much. Doomed to eternal domination and suffering without repentance.

The Jesusonian Gospel and the Urantia Book teach a far different reality perspective. I look forward to the conversation!!

Yes...hahaha... don't want to be transitional or probationary or mere potential!! Want to realize that potential. The good news is the best way for a tadpole to become a frog is live eagerly and earnestly as a tadpole!!

No sincere believer should have much to repent ever. God measures motive and intention and certainly forgives immaturity, inexperience, confusion, misjudgement, frustration, failure and all such errors of growing up without any need for repentance.

God's love, mercy, generosity, patience, and personal affection is endless and without condition. Or so I understand the UB to teach.

:wink: :biggrin:
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"Repentance ":

https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book/se ... &op=Search

137:8.17 (1537.4) “John came preaching repentance to prepare you for the kingdom; now have I come proclaiming faith, the gift of God, as the price of entrance into the kingdom of heaven. If you would but believe that my Father loves you with an infinite love, then you are in the kingdom of God.”

138:8.8 (1545.9) Jesus made plain to his apostles the difference between the repentance of so-called good works as taught by the Jews and the change of mind by faith—the new birth—which he required as the price of admission to the kingdom. He taught his apostles that faith was the only requisite to entering the Father’s kingdom. John had taught them “repentance—to flee from the wrath to come.” Jesus taught, “Faith is the open door for entering into the present, perfect, and eternal love of God.” Jesus did not speak like a prophet, one who comes to declare the word of God. He seemed to speak of himself as one having authority. Jesus sought to divert their minds from miracle seeking to the finding of a real and personal experience in the satisfaction and assurance of the indwelling of God’s spirit of love and saving grace.

169:1.3 (1851.1) “You have been taught that divine acceptance comes after your repentance and as a result of all your works of sacrifice and penitence, but I assure you that the Father accepts you even before you have repented and sends the Son and his associates to find you and bring you, with rejoicing, back to the fold, the kingdom of sonship and spiritual progress. You are all like sheep which have gone astray, and I have come to seek and to save those who are lost."

174:1.1 (1898.1) For several days Peter and James had been engaged in discussing their differences of opinion about the Master’s teaching regarding the forgiveness of sin. They had both agreed to lay the matter before Jesus, and Peter embraced this occasion as a fitting opportunity for securing the Master’s counsel. Accordingly, Simon Peter broke in on the conversation dealing with the differences between praise and worship, by asking: “Master, James and I are not in accord regarding your teachings having to do with the forgiveness of sin. James claims you teach that the Father forgives us even before we ask him, and I maintain that repentance and confession must precede the forgiveness. Which of us is right? what do you say?”

174:1.2 (1898.2) After a short silence Jesus looked significantly at all four and answered: “My brethren, you err in your opinions because you do not comprehend the nature of those intimate and loving relations between the creature and the Creator, between man and God. You fail to grasp that understanding sympathy which the wise parent entertains for his immature and sometimes erring child. It is indeed doubtful whether intelligent and affectionate parents are ever called upon to forgive an average and normal child. Understanding relationships associated with attitudes of love effectively prevent all those estrangements which later necessitate the readjustment of repentance by the child with forgiveness by the parent.

174:1.3 (1898.3) “A part of every father lives in the child. The father enjoys priority and superiority of understanding in all matters connected with the child-parent relationship. The parent is able to view the immaturity of the child in the light of the more advanced parental maturity, the riper experience of the older partner. With the earthly child and the heavenly Father, the divine parent possesses infinity and divinity of sympathy and capacity for loving understanding. Divine forgiveness is inevitable; it is inherent and inalienable in God’s infinite understanding, in his perfect knowledge of all that concerns the mistaken judgment and erroneous choosing of the child. Divine justice is so eternally fair that it unfailingly embodies understanding mercy.

174:1.4 (1898.4) “When a wise man understands the inner impulses of his fellows, he will love them. And when you love your brother, you have already forgiven him. This capacity to understand man’s nature and forgive his apparent wrongdoing is Godlike. If you are wise parents, this is the way you will love and understand your children, even forgive them when transient misunderstanding has apparently separated you. The child, being immature and lacking in the fuller understanding of the depth of the child-father relationship, must frequently feel a sense of guilty separation from a father’s full approval, but the true father is never conscious of any such separation. Sin is an experience of creature consciousness; it is not a part of God’s consciousness.

8)

The UB provides a very distinct and unique perspective of the nature of God and the relationship between God and the children of time. And also the meaning of sin itself. But even more importantly is the fact of the inherent Divine connection.

Those primitives who believe that we must know something or do something or confess something or believe something to establish a connection to God or save their soul from damnation do not understand the fact and truth of reality.

It is particularly and specifically important that students of the UB understand these critical issues. Jesus first introduced these concepts and perspective of God’s true nature to free us from the chains of guilt and cruel lies of original sin and the primitive beliefs in humanity's sinful nature.

Those who cling to such primitive beliefs defy the teachings of Jesus and the Urantia Book.

It shouldn't be tolerated here of all places.

8)
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Bradley, your displeasure with the word repent is noted.

I agree that John the Baptist's use of the word probably represented his own lack of clarity in understanding the process of salvation; a process that has now been greatly clarified in the Urantia Book. After all he was apparently, according to the revelation, not privileged to be exposed to Jesus' teachings. But notice also what Jesus told John’s messengers in paper 135:11.4 “This long suspense in prison was humanly unbearable. Just a few days before his death John again sent trusted messengers to Jesus, inquiring: “Is my work done? Why do I languish in prison? Are you truly the Messiah, or shall we look for another?” And when these two disciples gave this message to Jesus, the Son of Man replied: “Go back to John and tell him that I have not forgotten but to suffer me also this, for it becomes us to fulfill all righteousness. Tell John what you have seen and heard — that the poor have good tidings preached to them — and, finally, tell the beloved herald of my earth mission that he shall be abundantly blessed in the age to come if he finds no occasion to doubt and stumble over me.” And this was the last word John received from Jesus. This message greatly comforted him and did much to stabilize his faith and prepare him for the tragic end of his life in the flesh which followed so soon upon the heels of this memorable occasion.”

I do think there is more to the idea than you have addressed. Let us take a deeper look at the following text. The process of salvation is more deliberate than automatic, or Jesus would not have warned even John not to find an ‘occasion to doubt and stumble over me’.

In paper 146:3.3-8 we read, “On the second evening at Ramah, Thomas asked Jesus this question: “Master, how can a new believer in your teaching really know, really be certain, about the truth of this gospel of the kingdom?”

146:3.4 And Jesus said to Thomas: “Your assurance that you have entered into the kingdom family of the Father, and that you will eternally survive with the children of the kingdom, is wholly a matter of personal experience — faith in the word of truth. Spiritual assurance is the equivalent of your personal religious experience in the eternal realities of divine truth and is otherwise equal to your intelligent understanding of truth realities plus your spiritual faith and minus your honest doubts.

This is quite a formula, wouldn't you say? ASSURANCE equals intelligent understanding of TRUTH REALITIES plus SPIRITUAL FAITH minus HONEST DOUBT.

146:3.5 “The Son is naturally endowed with the life of the Father. Having been endowed with the living spirit of the Father, you are therefore sons of God. You survive your life in the material world of the flesh because you are identified with the Father’s living spirit, the gift of eternal life. Many, indeed, had this life before I came forth from the Father, and many more have received this spirit because they believed my word; but I declare that, when I return to the Father, he will send his spirit into the hearts of all men.

It seems apparent that Jesus here is referring to the universal indwelling of Thought Adjusters in all normal minds. In addition, he identifies the focus of the action by his use of the word are in because you are identified. Are identified means identified in both the present and the past tense, as in having been identified and implies a condition of continuing identification. While this implication is inferred, it is inferred opposed to a simpler word which might be used. Jesus asks of us not merely that we identify God and believe, but that we willfully internalize this through the act of identifying ourselves as our true selves through the Father's living spirit. Literally, his reality becomes our identity. When this has happened in our experience, we are identified with the Father's living spirit.

146:3.6 “While you cannot observe the divine spirit at work in your minds, there is a practical method of discovering the degree to which you have yielded the control of your soul powers to the teaching and guidance of this indwelling spirit of the heavenly Father, and that is the degree of your love for your fellow men.

Here he draws us to make the distinction in our personal self-consciousness regarding the totality of our spiritual actualization. Here we must take that deep hard look into the inner mirror of truth and willfully demand of ourselves that we identify and face our shortcomings. Here we can lay out our inner fears and faults and direct ourselves to identify them one by one. By this, our self-control is given the opportunity to address them and surrender. This is where I used the term ‘repent’ instead of surrender. This is the point in ourselves where we allow God to qualify our trust in him; where I say, “I am not honest with myself until God says I am honest with him.” This is the domination Jesus refers to in the next line. Spiritual domination by God is a step-by-step process we must willfully authorize. The proof of such domination is in our genuine love for God (the worship response) and the equivalent expression toward our fellow human beings.

This spirit of the Father partakes of the love of the Father, and as it dominates man, it unfailingly leads in the directions of divine worship and loving regard for one’s fellows. At first you believe that you are sons of God because my teaching has made you more conscious of the inner leadings of our Father’s indwelling presence; but presently the Spirit of Truth shall be poured out upon all flesh, and it will live among men and teach all men, even as I now live among you and speak to you the words of truth. And this Spirit of Truth, speaking for the spiritual endowments of your souls, will help you to know that you are the sons of God. It will unfailingly bear witness with the Father’s indwelling presence, your spirit, then dwelling in all men as it now dwells in some, telling you that you are in reality the sons of God.

The following paragraph is perhaps the revelation of the key to the whole issue. The stages of the process are made clear. First, we allow ourselves to discover that there is such a thing as God. Second, we decide to find him for ourselves. Third, we choose to follow him. Fourth, and most important, we surrender our will to the fullest extent of our capability, to the process of doing the will of God. Salvation is the whole process, not merely one part. Jesus personally said, the Urantia Book teaches, and the Spirit of Truth and our Thought Adjuster guides us to experientially validate that we must surrender control of our will to enable this to occur.

146:3.7 “Every earth child who follows the leading of this spirit shall eventually know the will of God, and he who surrenders to the will of my Father shall abide forever. The way from the earth life to the eternal estate has not been made plain to you, but there is a way, there always has been, and I have come to make that way new and living. He who enters the kingdom has eternal life already — he shall never perish. But much of this you will the better understand when I shall have returned to the Father and you are able to view your present experiences in retrospect.”

This is huge! This is not merely a decision to love God and man as we know love. This is a fully intended consecration of our will to do the will of God, which is love. The process Jesus states so plainly here is so deep and internally sincere that we often misunderstand how much of us is requested to accept and enact it. Jesus does not differentiate the process based on our status. Material or morontial, there is only one thing to do. God’s will. It is all the same. He occasionally uses terms that imply there is a now and then aspect to life, a pre-death and a post death, but in these statements, he is merely qualifying the physical/material life perspective. The material life perspective and the morontia or spiritual life perspective both require the same conviction on our part. That is what does not change. We enter the kingdom now, by faith.

Carl Jung, the philosopher once was asked during an interview if he believed in God. He replied very slowly and thoughtfully, “I don’t believe. . . I know!” The difference is everything.

146:3.8 And all who heard these blessed words were greatly cheered. The Jewish teachings had been confused and uncertain regarding the survival of the righteous, and it was refreshing and inspiring for Jesus’ followers to hear these very definite and positive words of assurance about the eternal survival of all true believers.”

In this, Jesus’ answer to Thomas regarding how a believer might know for sure that his gospel is true, Jesus makes it as clear as can be and as well, I believe, as clear as is stated anywhere else in this entire revelation just what is necessary for an individual to know the truth. “Every earth child who follows the leading of this spirit shall eventually know the will of God,”. This is stated as following the lead of the spirit which will provide the spiritual insight, insight which we can consciously experience and which when experienced lays a foundation of experience for us to make the necessary decisions Jesus refers to as “and he who surrenders to the will of my Father shall abide forever.” The actual process of achieving salvation is this surrendering of our will to the will of the Father, to do the will of God as is revealed through our experience of living faith; faith in the truth he has guided us to understand.

This surrendering is a distinctly separate action of will than is experienced when we initiate our beginning decision to seek to discover what a belief in God is, or our decision to follow the guidance of the spirit to gain an understanding of God and his ways. This is the point where we surrender our self-control; where we say, “It is my will that God’s will be done.” Each step forward in this process of managing our willpower brings us closer to the point of no return; the decision to relinquish our self-control and surrender; to give up, to give in. It is here in the depth of our personality where we each “come to terms” with God. We do this by consciously transferring our very own identity to the living control of the indwelling spirit, the Thought Adjuster. As we then resume life after surrendering control of our own self-directed way, our new reality perspective reawakens us and reveals a greater depth of spiritual experience than we could have possibly conceived of merely as a result of our self-directed learning. Jesus continues, The way from the earth life to the eternal estate has not been made plain to you, but there is a way, there always has been, and I have come to make that way new and living. He who enters the kingdom has eternal life already — he shall never perish. But much of this you will the better understand when I shall have returned to the Father and you are able to view your present experiences in retrospect.”

So, whether I use the term repent or surrender the meaning is revealed as the relinquishing of our personal desire to control our lives and deliberately and specifically allow God to control our destiny and practice. In paper 170:2.23 we read, “Jesus taught that sin is not the child of a defective nature but rather the offspring of a knowing mind dominated by an unsubmissive will. Regarding sin, he taught that God has forgiven; that we make such forgiveness personally available by the act of forgiving our fellows. When you forgive your brother in the flesh, you thereby create the capacity in your own soul for the reception of the reality of God’s forgiveness of your own misdeeds.”

My conclusion to your argument against my use of the word repent is that our greatest feat in a life of achieving this realization of truth, beauty and goodness is to discover the limits and dimensions of our own personal unwillingness to do the will of God and change that. Whether we call that change repent or surrender is of little concern.
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Jim, you may not choose and change word definitions to suit your personal prejudices. Repentance is not the same as spirit domination and will alignment. Please pick a lane.

Domination of the spirit nature is an interesting concept. It illustrates the inherent and natural connections between mortals and Deity. The Spirit Nature is our human nature. It is the connections of the Adjutants of Worship and Wisdom that makes us human rather than animal. To be dominated by the Spirit is to succumb only to our own natural state of being, and certainly NOT by the domination of any other being or force.

34:6.11 (381.5) The Spirit never drives, only leads. If you are a willing learner, if you want to attain spirit levels and reach divine heights, if you sincerely desire to reach the eternal goal, then the divine Spirit will gently and lovingly lead you along the pathway of sonship and spiritual progress. Every step you take must be one of willingness, intelligent and cheerful co-operation. The domination of the Spirit is never tainted with coercion nor compromised by compulsion.

34:6.12 (381.6) And when such a life of spirit guidance is freely and intelligently accepted, there gradually develops within the human mind a positive consciousness of divine contact and assurance of spirit communion; sooner or later “the Spirit bears witness with your spirit (the Adjuster) that you are a child of God.” Already has your own Thought Adjuster told you of your kinship to God so that the record testifies that the Spirit bears witness “with your spirit,” not to your spirit.

34:6.13 (381.7) The consciousness of the spirit domination of a human life is presently attended by an increasing exhibition of the characteristics of the Spirit in the life reactions of such a spirit-led mortal, “for the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance.” Such spirit-guided and divinely illuminated mortals, while they yet tread the lowly paths of toil and in human faithfulness perform the duties of their earthly assignments, have already begun to discern the lights of eternal life as they glimmer on the faraway shores of another world; already have they begun to comprehend the reality of that inspiring and comforting truth, “The kingdom of God is not meat and drink but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.” And throughout every trial and in the presence of every hardship, spirit-born souls are sustained by that hope which transcends all fear because the love of God is shed abroad in all hearts by the presence of the divine Spirit.

8)

I have no "displeasure" with the word or concept of repentance Jim. My understanding of the term is well defined in the UB. Perhaps you missed the link I posted above to all the quotes on repentance? I simply reject your misuse of the term and concept and related primitivisms.

Your beliefs about sin, guilt, domination, obedience, and salvation appear to me to represent the very primitive Judeo/Christian definition of repentance as related to your personal feelings of guilt, regret, and remorse, and your personal perspective of an imperious and demanding God who you believe requires obedience, submissive capitulation, and domination/control of your personal will for your personal salvation.

Perhaps a study of the Prodigal Son parable might help better understand the relationship of loving parent and a deliberately rebellious, impetuous and immature child?

Jim declares: "...we must surrender control of our will to enable this to occur."

and "...This is the point where we surrender our self-control..."

and "...resume life after surrendering control of our own self-directed way..."

and "...the meaning is revealed as the relinquishing of our personal desire to control our lives and deliberately and specifically allow God to control our destiny and practice."


All false. We never surrender control of our will or selfhood!! We are always in control of our destiny by our freewill choices. So many contradictions of the text and reality perspective provided in the UB in these declarations of yours Jim. Unfortunate.

112:5.5 (1233.1) And it is this very power of choice, the universe insignia of freewill creaturehood, that constitutes man’s greatest opportunity and his supreme cosmic responsibility. Upon the integrity of the human volition depends the eternal destiny of the future finaliter; upon the sincerity of the mortal free will the divine Adjuster depends for eternal personality; upon the faithfulness of mortal choice the Universal Father depends for the realization of a new ascending son; upon the steadfastness and wisdom of decision-actions the Supreme Being depends for the actuality of experiential evolution.

111:1.6 (1217.1) Mind is the cosmic instrument on which the human will can play the discords of destruction, or upon which this same human will can bring forth the exquisite melodies of God identification and consequent eternal survival. The Adjuster bestowed upon man is, in the last analysis, impervious to evil and incapable of sin, but mortal mind can actually be twisted, distorted, and rendered evil and ugly by the sinful machinations of a perverse and self-seeking human will. Likewise can this mind be made noble, beautiful, true, and good—actually great—in accordance with the spirit-illuminated will of a God-knowing human being.[/color]


111:1.8 (1217.3) But man does not passively, slavishly, surrender his will to the Adjuster. Rather does he actively, positively, and co-operatively choose to follow the Adjuster’s leading when and as such leading consciously differs from the desires and impulses of the natural mortal mind. The Adjusters manipulate but never dominate man’s mind against his will; to the Adjusters the human will is supreme. And they so regard and respect it while they strive to achieve the spiritual goals of thought adjustment and character transformation in the almost limitless arena of the evolving human intellect.

111:1.9 (1217.4) Mind is your ship, the Adjuster is your pilot, the human will is captain. The master of the mortal vessel should have the wisdom to trust the divine pilot to guide the ascending soul into the morontia harbors of eternal survival. Only by selfishness, slothfulness, and sinfulness can the will of man reject the guidance of such a loving pilot and eventually wreck the mortal career upon the evil shoals of rejected mercy and upon the rocks of embraced sin. With your consent, this faithful pilot will safely carry you across the barriers of time and the handicaps of space to the very source of the divine mind and on beyond, even to the Paradise Father of Adjusters.

117:5.2 (1285.5) The intellectual, potentially personal selves of the finite emerge from the Third Source and Center and achieve finite time-space Deity synthesis in the Supreme. When the creature submits to the will of the Creator, he does not submerge or surrender his personality; the individual personality participants in the actualization of the finite God do not lose their volitional selfhood by so functioning. Rather are such personalities progressively augmented by participation in this great Deity adventure; by such union with divinity man exalts, enriches, spiritualizes, and unifies his evolving self to the very threshold of supremacy.

1:1.2 (22.5) The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves—in their own hearts—recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father’s will is man’s choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man’s only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father’s will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:54 pm +0000, edited 9 times in total.

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169:1.5 (1851.3) “And now I would like to tell you the story of a thoughtless son of a well-to-do farmer who deliberately left his father’s house and went off into a foreign land, where he fell into much tribulation. You recall that the sheep strayed away without intention, but this youth left his home with premeditation. It was like this:

169:1.6 (1851.4) “A certain man had two sons; one, the younger, was lighthearted and carefree, always seeking for a good time and shirking responsibility, while his older brother was serious, sober, hard-working, and willing to bear responsibility. Now these two brothers did not get along well together; they were always quarreling and bickering. The younger lad was cheerful and vivacious, but indolent and unreliable; the older son was steady and industrious, at the same time self-centered, surly, and conceited. The younger son enjoyed play but shunned work; the older devoted himself to work but seldom played. This association became so disagreeable that the younger son came to his father and said: ‘Father, give me the third portion of your possessions which would fall to me and allow me to go out into the world to seek my own fortune.’ And when the father heard this request, knowing how unhappy the young man was at home and with his older brother, he divided his property, giving the youth his share.

169:1.7 (1851.5) “Within a few weeks the young man gathered together all his funds and set out upon a journey to a far country, and finding nothing profitable to do which was also pleasurable, he soon wasted all his inheritance in riotous living. And when he had spent all, there arose a prolonged famine in that country, and he found himself in want. And so, when he suffered hunger and his distress was great, he found employment with one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into the fields to feed swine. And the young man would fain have filled himself with the husks which the swine ate, but no one would give him anything.

169:1.8 (1852.1) “One day, when he was very hungry, he came to himself and said: ‘How many hired servants of my father have bread enough and to spare while I perish with hunger, feeding swine off here in a foreign country! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no more worthy to be called your son; only be willing to make me one of your hired servants.’ And when the young man had reached this decision, he arose and started out for his father’s house.

169:1.9 (1852.2) “Now this father had grieved much for his son; he had missed the cheerful, though thoughtless, lad. This father loved this son and was always on the lookout for his return, so that on the day he approached his home, even while he was yet afar off, the father saw him and, being moved with loving compassion, ran out to meet him, and with affectionate greeting he embraced and kissed him. And after they had thus met, the son looked up into his father’s tearful face and said: ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no more worthy to be called a son’—but the lad did not find opportunity to complete his confession because the overjoyed father said to the servants who had by this time come running up: ‘Bring quickly his best robe, the one I have saved, and put it on him and put the son’s ring on his hand and fetch sandals for his feet.’

169:1.10 (1852.3) “And then, after the happy father had led the footsore and weary lad into the house, he called to his servants: ‘Bring on the fatted calf and kill it, and let us eat and make merry, for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they all gathered about the father to rejoice with him over the restoration of his son.

169:1.11 (1852.4) “About this time, while they were celebrating, the elder son came in from his day’s work in the field, and as he drew near the house, he heard the music and the dancing. And when he came up to the back door, he called out one of the servants and inquired as to the meaning of all this festivity. And then said the servant: ‘Your long-lost brother has come home, and your father has killed the fatted calf to rejoice over his son’s safe return. Come in that you also may greet your brother and receive him back into your father’s house.’

Me here: An important teaching here is the fact that the father did NOT require repentance to give love and restore the Son's standing. Neither did the father demand or coerce or dominate the will of the son. The son simply grew up in maturity and wisdom to recognize the father's greater wisdom and aligned his personal will with that of greater wisdom and understanding.

The repentance of the son was due to his "deliberate" and willful rejection of the loving father. His regret provided for his humble embrace of reality and reconnection to his former estate as beloved child. Repentance is not for the Father and is not required by the father for the Father to love, forgive, restore, and embrace the son.

Perhaps even more importantly is the fact that this story is not about gaining the father's original love either. Repentance was not needed for the original loving parent-child relationship and neither was it required for its full restoration.

Human salvation does NOT depend on or require repentance, despite Jim's declarations here. An important teaching.

The second brother's attitude of personal superiority and indignation and resentments regarding obedience and submission seem so appropriate here for our reflection and consideration.

8)

169:1.12 (1852.5) “But when the older brother heard this, he was so hurt and angry he would not go into the house. When his father heard of his resentment of the welcome of his younger brother, he went out to entreat him. But the older son would not yield to his father’s persuasion. He answered his father, saying: ‘Here these many years have I served you, never transgressing the least of your commands, and yet you never gave me even a kid that I might make merry with my friends. I have remained here to care for you all these years, and you never made rejoicing over my faithful service, but when this your son returns, having squandered your substance with harlots, you make haste to kill the fatted calf and make merry over him.’

169:1.13 (1852.6) “Since this father truly loved both of his sons, he tried to reason with this older one: ‘But, my son, you have all the while been with me, and all this which I have is yours. You could have had a kid at any time you had made friends to share your merriment. But it is only proper that you should now join with me in being glad and merry because of your brother’s return. Think of it, my son, your brother was lost and is found; he has returned alive to us!’”

:!: :idea: :wink:

169:1.14 (1853.1) This was one of the most touching and effective of all the parables which Jesus ever presented to impress upon his hearers the Father’s willingness to receive all who seek entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

169:1.15 (1853.2) Jesus was very partial to telling these three stories at the same time. He presented the story of the lost sheep to show that, when men unintentionally stray away from the path of life, the Father is mindful of such lost ones and goes out, with his Sons, the true shepherds of the flock, to seek the lost sheep. He then would recite the story of the coin lost in the house to illustrate how thorough is the divine searching for all who are confused, confounded, or otherwise spiritually blinded by the material cares and accumulations of life. And then he would launch forth into the telling of this parable of the lost son, the reception of the returning prodigal, to show how complete is the restoration of the lost son into his Father’s house and heart.

169:1.16 (1853.3) Many, many times during his years of teaching, Jesus told and retold this story of the prodigal son. This parable and the story of the good Samaritan were his favorite means of teaching the love of the Father and the neighborliness of man.
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Jim says above: "My conclusion to your argument against my use of the word repent is that our greatest feat in a life of achieving this realization of truth, beauty and goodness is to discover the limits and dimensions of our own personal unwillingness to do the will of God and change that. Whether we call that change repent or surrender is of little concern."

I'm not making an argument Jim. I'm discussing and using the terms stated and definitions of those as presented in the UB. Don't know what your doing. But I would say that neither repentance or surrender describes the "greatest feat" in any life, nor does discovery of "the limits and dimensions of our personal unwillingness to do the will of God"...whatever that might mean.

Hmmm....

I wonder how you define "the will" of God Jim? Is it the same for you as it is for me or others? Is it a specific "what" to you? I mean are there specific tasks and duties for you to perform? So you think people are unwilling to "do the will of God"? Interesting. So... they know the will of God and yet are unwilling to do that? So then you must believe we are all rebellious and intentionally disobedient and deliberately sinful??

If true, and apparently so, then I understand why you might think repentance to be so universally important. But such a perspective directly contradicts the UB Jim. And is a very judgmental view of all others too.

For me, I think the UB teaches that our willingness, and eagerness, to do God's will is a reflection of our spiritual growth and experiential wisdom and progression of our spiritization and reality perspective.

103:7.2 (1137.7) True salvation is the technique of the divine evolution of the mortal mind from matter identification through the realms of morontia liaison to the high universe status of spiritual correlation. And as material intuitive instinct precedes the appearance of reasoned knowledge in terrestrial evolution, so does the manifestation of spiritual intuitive insight presage the later appearance of morontia and spirit reason and experience in the supernal program of celestial evolution, the business of transmuting the potentials of man the temporal into the actuality and divinity of man the eternal, a Paradise finaliter.

Me here: True salvation is the greatest feat in this life. It is evolutionary and incremental and progressive rather than sudden or immediate. Our salvation does not require repentance or the surrender of freewill or selfhood as you claim. And we cannot discover the limits of our unwillingness (whatever you mean by that) to do anything at all. We can only expand our discernment of God’s will and our willingness to embrace that by our own will alignment... it's a positive experience rather than a negative.

Which brings us to the issue of what God’s will is or might be. I believe the UB teaches us that God’s will is never a WHAT, but is rather a WHY and HOW. God’s will is for God’s children to joyfully experience God’s love and friendly universe and to express that experience with love - sharing and caring (as best we know how) the fruits of the Spirit which come to all God’s children who do so. The "what" is determined by our experience and wisdom and those motives and intentions and priorities that spiritization delivers to each individual and all such expressions are completely personal and unique and are never and can never be uniform or predictable or universal.

We express God’s will by our own with our motives and intentions and priorities - those determine our WHY and HOW. God does not even measure or consider our WHAT I don't think. He measures our heart.

103:4.4 (1133.4) Jesus swept away all of the ceremonials of sacrifice and atonement. He destroyed the basis of all this fictitious guilt and sense of isolation in the universe by declaring that man is a child of God; the creature-Creator relationship was placed on a child-parent basis. God becomes a loving Father to his mortal sons and daughters. All ceremonials not a legitimate part of such an intimate family relationship are forever abrogated.

103:4.5 (1133.5) God the Father deals with man his child on the basis, not of actual virtue or worthiness, but in recognition of the child’s motivation—the creature purpose and intent. The relationship is one of parent-child association and is actuated by divine love.

110:3.6 (1206.4) You must not regard co-operation with your Adjuster as a particularly conscious process, for it is not; but your motives and your decisions, your faithful determinations and your supreme desires, do constitute real and effective co-operation. You can consciously augment Adjuster harmony by:

110:3.7 (1206.5) 1. Choosing to respond to divine leading; sincerely basing the human life on the highest consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness, and then co-ordinating these qualities of divinity through wisdom, worship, faith, and love.

110:3.8 (1206.6) 2. Loving God and desiring to be like him—genuine recognition of the divine fatherhood and loving worship of the heavenly Parent.

110:3.9 (1206.7) 3. Loving man and sincerely desiring to serve him—wholehearted recognition of the brotherhood of man coupled with an intelligent and wise affection for each of your fellow mortals.

110:3.10 (1206.8) 4. Joyful acceptance of cosmic citizenship—honest recognition of your progressive obligations to the Supreme Being, awareness of the interdependence of evolutionary man and evolving Deity. This is the birth of cosmic morality and the dawning realization of universal duty.


Me here: God’s will is the experience and expressions of the realization of potential and thusly the creation of ever new potential. In this regard God’s will is the same for all... which means different for each. Which means we waste our time telling others what God’s will is for anybody. Such an opinion is self important and sublimely ridiculous and indicates taking one's tadpole self and opinions way too seriously.

48:4.15 (549.2) When we are tempted to magnify our self-importance, if we stop to contemplate the infinity of the greatness and grandeur of our Makers, our own self-glorification becomes sublimely ridiculous, even verging on the humorous. One of the functions of humor is to help all of us take ourselves less seriously. Humor is the divine antidote for exaltation of ego.

:wink:
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Bradly...

Jim says:
Quote:
My conclusion to your argument against my use of the word repent is that our greatest feat in a life of achieving this realization of truth, beauty and goodness is to discover the limits and dimensions of our own personal unwillingness to do the will of God and change that. Whether we call that change repent or surrender is of little concern.


I agree with this. My own repentance marked a turning point in my life. It was scaffolding, but important scaffolding.

Self-will can only be conquered by surrender to God. In my case, surrender and repentance went hand-in-hand. The surrender actually came first, repentance followed.

I have a hard time understanding why you have such an attitude about repentance, Bradly. Repentance is not against the teachings of The Urantia Book. It may not be the ultimate ideal attitude of the child toward the Father, but it can definitely serve the purpose of improving relations between the child and the Father in certain circumstances and along the path of righteousness. I am a witness to that.

If it isn't right for you, fine. But quit saying it is somehow wrong. It is not wrong.

Quote:
"When men believe this gospel, which is a revelation of the goodness of God, they will be led to voluntary repentance of all known sin. Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection."


Again, I refer you and others to our topical study on repentance here:
https://truthbook.com/urantia/topical-studies/repentance
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I have never, not once, said repentance is "wrong". But it is not required for salvation or the Deity connections or the parent/child relationship.

Repentance has certainly not been the most important thing in my life. I doubt it is is in any life really. Perhaps the birth of soul is most important? Or the psychic circles progress? The Divine presence and Divine assurance perhaps? But not repentance. No, not that.

But then for myself and many others, belief and faith came early and easy. Not maturity and wisdom, no. Still struggling for those...hahaha!

Repentance is related to deliberate sin and intentional disobedience and disloyalty... or so I understand the UB to teach.

I look forward to further discussion and discovery of a most important topic.

:smile:


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Well, you certainly chastise others for their need for it. And you say that it contradicts the teachings of The Urantia Book.

Quote:
it is not required for salvation or the Deity connections or the parent/child relationship.


That is true. But some seekers may not fully grasp or fully understand that truth when in the process of righting ourselves with God. Repentance has its place in the evolution of spiritual growth. Maybe not for all, but for many. And Jesus talked about it and its value. I do not see it as contradictory at all.

It is unkind to minimize or trivialize another's experience with repentance. It is ungracious to hit someone over the head with saving truth. That saving truth is a dawning realization in the experience of the believer, and repentance may be a valuable part of a process of reconciliation.
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I have never, not once ever, chastised or minimized or trivialized anyone's "need" for it or experience with it - no such thing. Shouldn't do it ... and wouldn't do it!!

I disagree with the declaration that any or all must do it for salvation or for the Deity connections or religious experience and growth and the claim it is the most important thing in life.

Puzzling accusation...and false.

Again... I have never, not once ever, said that repentance "contradicts" the UB. Weird. I posted a link to all quotes/text on repentance and posted several such quotes too.

:roll:


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So then you must believe we are all rebellious and intentionally disobedient and deliberately sinful??

If true, and apparently so, then I understand why you might think repentance to be so universally important. But such a perspective directly contradicts the UB. And is a very judgmental view of all others too.


Here, you were in opposition to another's ideas about repentance. On reflection, I see that you were questioning someone's belief about sinfulness in general. Jesus told us that we are not all deliberately sinful:

Quote:
Human nature may tend toward evil, but it is not inherently sinful.


And it could be that what someone repenting thinks of as sin may not even BE sin, according to Jesus' definition of sin. But that is not as important as the feeling that one gets from repenting when one feels the need to do so.

Nevertheless, the overall impression I get from your posts is that repentance is generally unnecessary and in contradiction to the truth. I disagree. For those who feel it is a key element in their spiritual growth, it is important and valuable.
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Nothing wrong with disagreement with someone's "ideas" here at TruthBook, right? Especially if those ideas directly refute and contradict the UB?

I cannot help your "impressions" Maryjo. But I have posted nothing that should lead to your inaccurate conclusion that I believe or think or have said that "repentance is generally unnecessary and in contradiction to the truth."

Hmmm...repentance is necessary for those who deliberately and consciously rebel and knowingly make immoral choices...as it says in the UB!! Not my opinion Maryjo. If you were making deliberate immoral choices and consciously resisting God and knowingly being disloyal to your ideals and God's will then indeed was repentance good for your restoration of relationship with Deity.

Repentance is not a contradiction to truth but the false claim that it is required for salvation or Deity connection or God's love and mercy and Divine forgiveness or Assurance or the first jubilee is most certainly and assuredly a contradiction to truth indeed!

Or rather, I should say....it is a direct contradiction of the UB. Whether the Revelation is right or wrong is up to each of us to determine really. If you and Jim wish to disagree with the UB, fine. Jim's claims here certainly do so.

3:5.15 (52.1) Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, the wholehearted desire and perfect willingness to do the Father’s divine will. The only evolutionary world without error (the possibility of unwise judgment) would be a world without free intelligence. In the Havona universe there are a billion perfect worlds with their perfect inhabitants, but evolving man must be fallible if he is to be free. Free and inexperienced intelligence cannot possibly at first be uniformly wise. The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment.

67:1.4 (754.5) There are many ways of looking at sin, but from the universe philosophic viewpoint sin is the attitude of a personality who is knowingly resisting cosmic reality. Error might be regarded as a misconception or distortion of reality. Evil is a partial realization of, or maladjustment to, universe realities. But sin is a purposeful resistance to divine reality—a conscious choosing to oppose spiritual progress—while iniquity consists in an open and persistent defiance of recognized reality and signifies such a degree of personality disintegration as to border on cosmic insanity.

89:10.2 (984.5) Sin must be redefined as deliberate disloyalty to Deity. There are degrees of disloyalty: the partial loyalty of indecision; the divided loyalty of confliction; the dying loyalty of indifference; and the death of loyalty exhibited in devotion to godless ideals.

89:10.3 (984.6) The sense or feeling of guilt is the consciousness of the violation of the mores; it is not necessarily sin. There is no real sin in the absence of conscious disloyalty to Deity.

Me here: Happy to discuss repentance as presented in the UB!! As I understand it, repentance is the restoration of personal reality perspective and the acceptance of responsibility for the deliberate disloyalty and disobedience of a rebellious and self important being. It is the experience of humility and conscious regret for personal and conscious choices.

But feelings of guilt and personal conscience is something else entirely - related perhaps but different. Errors of immaturity and inexperience and even self importance and poor priorities and motives are not sin. Is repentance needed or effective for our immaturity? An interesting question. But outside the definition of repentance and sin given us in the UB I think.

As previously posted, the human conscience is a good thing and signals self awareness and the importance of others and of our moral nature!!

89:10.4 (984.7) The possibility of the recognition of the sense of guilt is a badge of transcendent distinction for mankind. It does not mark man as mean but rather sets him apart as a creature of potential greatness and ever-ascending glory. Such a sense of unworthiness is the initial stimulus that should lead quickly and surely to those faith conquests which translate the mortal mind to the superb levels of moral nobility, cosmic insight, and spiritual living; thus are all the meanings of human existence changed from the temporal to the eternal, and all values are elevated from the human to the divine.

89:10.5 (984.8) The confession of sin is a manful repudiation of disloyalty, but it in no wise mitigates the time-space consequences of such disloyalty. But confession—sincere recognition of the nature of sin—is essential to religious growth and spiritual progress.

89:10.6 (985.1) The forgiveness of sin by Deity is the renewal of loyalty relations following a period of the human consciousness of the lapse of such relations as the consequence of conscious rebellion. The forgiveness does not have to be sought, only received as the consciousness of re-establishment of loyalty relations between the creature and the Creator. And all the loyal sons of God are happy, service-loving, and ever-progressive in the Paradise ascent.

8)

Me here: I wonder Maryjo if you might be confusing the conscience and feelings of guilt with repentance as presented in the UB?? And I wonder too if you are thinking that repentance is required for our rebirth or being born again - that moment or season of dedication and personal commitment to the Spirit nature and connection within?? The first of the jubilees for our TA!! I don't believe repentance is needed for salvation...or the first jubilee!

27:7.8 (305.1) After the attainment of the supreme satisfaction of the fullness of worship, you are qualified for admission to the Corps of the Finality. The ascendant career is well-nigh finished, and the seventh jubilee prepares for celebration. The first jubilee marked the mortal agreement with the Thought Adjuster when the purpose to survive was sealed; the second was the awakening in the morontia life; the third was the fusion with the Thought Adjuster; the fourth was the awakening in Havona; the fifth celebrated the finding of the Universal Father; and the sixth jubilee was the occasion of the Paradise awakening from the final transit slumber of time. The seventh jubilee marks entrance into the mortal finaliter corps and the beginning of the eternity service. The attainment of the seventh stage of spirit realization by a finaliter will probably signalize the celebration of the first of the jubilees of eternity.


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Conscience and guilt are interesting aspects of our evolutionary heritage.

100:1.5 (1094.7) The soil essential for religious growth presupposes a progressive life of self-realization, the co-ordination of natural propensities, the exercise of curiosity and the enjoyment of reasonable adventure, the experiencing of feelings of satisfaction, the functioning of the fear stimulus of attention and awareness, the wonder-lure, and a normal consciousness of smallness, humility. Growth is also predicated on the discovery of selfhood accompanied by self-criticism—conscience, for conscience is really the criticism of oneself by one’s own value-habits, personal ideals.

103:2.10 (1131.9) Man tends to identify the urge to be self-serving with his ego—himself. In contrast he is inclined to identify the will to be altruistic with some influence outside himself—God. And indeed is such a judgment right, for all such nonself desires do actually have their origin in the leadings of the indwelling Thought Adjuster, and this Adjuster is a fragment of God. The impulse of the spirit Monitor is realized in human consciousness as the urge to be altruistic, fellow-creature minded. At least this is the early and fundamental experience of the child mind. When the growing child fails of personality unification, the altruistic drive may become so overdeveloped as to work serious injury to the welfare of the self. A misguided conscience can become responsible for much conflict, worry, sorrow, and no end of human unhappiness.

92:2.6 (1005.2) Religion has at one time or another sanctioned all sorts of contrary and inconsistent behavior, has at some time approved of practically all that is now regarded as immoral or sinful. Conscience, untaught by experience and unaided by reason, never has been, and never can be, a safe and unerring guide to human conduct. Conscience is not a divine voice speaking to the human soul. It is merely the sum total of the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence; it simply represents the humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances.

110:5.1 (1207.7) Do not confuse and confound the mission and influence of the Adjuster with what is commonly called conscience; they are not directly related. Conscience is a human and purely psychic reaction. It is not to be despised, but it is hardly the voice of God to the soul, which indeed the Adjuster’s would be if such a voice could be heard. Conscience, rightly, admonishes you to do right; but the Adjuster, in addition, endeavors to tell you what truly is right; that is, when and as you are able to perceive the Monitor’s leading.
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When one chooses to seek the Father, makes a definite conscious choice to seek spiritual truths instead of mundane materialism, there is a new focus, a new direction and new goals. The former life is left behind, much like the caterpillar's cocoon as the butterfly spreads its wings and flies. The Greek word used in the New Testament is metanoia and in Classical Greek metanoia meant changing one's mind about someone or something, among other things.

So in spite of semantic hairsplitting I think we all share the same experience of actually making a conscious decision to seek the Source, the First Cause, or whatever we choose to call that which our Thought Adjuster is leading us towards, and in making that decision everything else pales in comparison. That decision is a landmark, a milestone in our eternal careers where we willingly and knowingly reject old values and priorities. What difference does it make if someone identifies with the word "repent" or "repentance".

I don't use it because for me personally it has a churchy significance that I no longer identify with, but if Jim says "repent" or "repentance" I know what he is talking about, even though I personally prefer not to describe my experience with that particular word.

Most of our wranglings over meanings and definitions are nothing more than hot air when we are discussing personal experiences in our walk towards Him. The Papers make it clear that our relationship with the Father is personal and as such is not really open to others' judgments or interpretations is it?

I still believe that disagreements are best resolved in person or through personal messages and not on the stage of public discussion, and at the very least we can agree to disagree regarding personal conviction and points of doctrine, rather than polluting the air with bickering.
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