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Hi Riktare,
Riktare wrote:
nnunn wrote:
Recall that from a nontime point of view, that "nontime sequence of events" (11:2.11) unfolds in "seven cosmic dimensions" (130:7.6)! :biggrin:

Wow! I guess when I read that many years ago, it merely swept past my ability to start to comprehend...

Thanks for the reference. Will take a lot of thought and study to even get a freshman's handle on...

Good timing! A first draft of a feeble attempt at glimpsing a faint hint about that "nontime sequence of events" unfolding in "seven cosmic dimensions" is taking shape. Stay tuned!

Riktare wrote:
Since artificial generally means "man made" rather than occurring naturally,

Actually, "artificial" means literally "made by an artist"...
UB 56:10.3 wrote:
"The supreme beauty, the height of finite art, is the drama of the unification of the vastness of the cosmic extremes of Creator and creature. Man finding God and God finding man -- the creature becoming perfect as is the Creator -- that is the supernal achievement of the supremely beautiful, the attainment of the apex of cosmic art." (56:10.3)

Does this mean "the apex of cosmic art" might be... the motivating I Am becoming We Are ?

Nigel


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fanofVan wrote:
Indeed. "Suboptimal"?


What !!???!!

At first I was laughing out loud because I simply could not believe you would post what you posted.

But soon it started to sink in that the situation is really no laughing matter. Some serious disturbance is lurking there. Is it emotional? Is it possible that I remind you of a person who hurt you as a child?

Since we are people who ardently study these magnificent papers and its authors really do emphasize cultivating a balanced approach to life, respecting and appreciating your "neighbors" and always exercising "reality testing", it would seem that "flying off the handle" for no reasonable cause would indicate some serious imbalance or maladaptation.

Please understand that I care for your health and well being. I will make a specific point to start praying for the right things to be done to set things on a beautiful, true and good course.


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nnunn wrote:
Does this mean "the apex of cosmic art" might be... the motivating I Am becoming We Are ?


That would be very consistent with the themes that have recently been discussed in this thread. My immediate interpretation of your post is that "I Am" represents deity, "We Are" represents all of us who are evolving creatures and who are actively pursuing the eternal career of partnership and unity with God while "cosmic art" might represent the exquisite interplay between the two being unfolded in the Master Universe.


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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Indeed. "Suboptimal"?


What !!???!!

At first I was laughing out loud because I simply could not believe you would post what you posted.

But soon it started to sink in that the situation is really no laughing matter. Some serious disturbance is lurking there. Is it emotional? Is it possible that I remind you of a person who hurt you as a child?

Since we are people who ardently study these magnificent papers and its authors really do emphasize cultivating a balanced approach to life, respecting and appreciating your "neighbors" and always exercising "reality testing", it would seem that "flying off the handle" for no reasonable cause would indicate some serious imbalance or maladaptation.

Please understand that I care for your health and well being. I will make a specific point to start praying for the right things to be done to set things on a beautiful, true and good course.


Thanks for the free, if unsolicited, psychoanalysis!

Prayer is always welcome.

But it is not "flying off the handle" to object to such outlandish distortions and direct contradiction of the Revelation. How, I wonder, might you counsel someone who refuses to address issues directly but substitutes character assassination instead?

There's a term for that....

"An ad hominem fallacy occurs when someone rejects or undermines an argument by attacking the character, credentials, or other personal traits of the person presenting it, instead of addressing the issue at hand."

....yeah, that's it! :-# :? :!:

Be nice to actually focus on the topics in Paper 42.

:wink:

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


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Greetings all,

It's great to see familiar faces and interesting topics. Every now and again, I visit the board as an observer; however, it has been a few years since I have actually participated. Returning today, I noticed an unfortunate fact that certain personalities still possess poisoned fruits. Because of this, I et al had refrained from participating. Actually I would have thought things would change over the passage of time. It appears I was wrong, sadly.

In any event, I hope and pray that the fruits of the spirit, one day, begin to flourish from those very personalities. Until the next time, I bid you all peace in Father's name.

Yours truly,
Brookly_Born.

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BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


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I apologize for my absence, my laptop died and I am only now beginning to catch up. I have read the posts, and although I am disappointed in the sniping and quibbling, I have learned to accept it as part of the discussion in this forum.

Lots of good points brought up and I thank all who have participated so far.

I agree with Nigel's question
Quote:
Does this mean "the apex of cosmic art" might be... the motivating I Am becoming We Are ?


becoming "We Are" is what it's all about isn't it?


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Yes, I would have to agree that off topic posts and "outlandish distortions and direct contradictions" of either the UB's material or another poster's meaning is very, very ugly and does not belong in a community where most are dedicated to do what they can to uphold the highest ideals and cooperate to a large degree.

It really shouldn't be necessary for me to have to defend myself or other well intentioned contributors, but not everyone works towards advancing the best and most harmonic ideals in a sincere manner.

So to the details:

In the specific example I gave, Caligastia requested that Jesus throw himself off a cliff. Of course, such an unholy "potential" neither interests deity nor fits into "the divine plan". Does anyone actually believe that calling Caligastia's idea "contrived" is in any way a distortion or a contradiction?

As Nigel pointed out, there is a historical meaning behind the English word "artificial" that presumably derives from the word "artifice". But increasingly in more recent years, the word is more popularly used to designate that something is inauthentic, synthetic, fake or "not the real thing". Based on a reasonable understanding of 118:1.10 (1296.2), how can one motivate that "artificial" does not properly apply to the "ungodly" proposals or "potentials" formulated by creatures when such "potentials" are counter to the proper potentials that are conceived and valued by deity?

In general, some posters may want to reduce all aspects of reality into a single "frame of reference". But that doesn't work when we're discussing the complex and nuanced ideas and information in this revelation. A person who wants to grow and better understand needs to develop mental, emotional, moral and attitudinal dexterity. Jumping from one frame of reference, where it fits well for thinking through one particular concept, into another far more suitable frame of reference for another concept or principle is required. The revelators, human wisdom and experience tell us that.

There are some very interesting and worthwhile aspects of pretty much everything in this thread apart from unfounded accusations. Let's not waste time but rather delve deeper into them.


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Riktare wrote:
Jumping from one frame of reference, where it fits well for thinking through one particular concept, into another far more suitable frame of reference for another concept or principle is required.

Indeed it is! With regard to more suitable frames of reference, back on Sunday 28 July I wrote:
nnunn wrote:
A first draft of a feeble attempt at glimpsing a faint hint about that "nontime sequence of events" unfolding in "seven cosmic dimensions (130:7.6)" is taking shape. Stay tuned!

Time to dive in :biggrin:

Preamble:

The Urantia Book presents a cosmology that takes us far beyond the reach of either scientific discovery, or religious experience.

This cosmology involves a cosmos that's caused by an Uncaused Cause, that's motivated by a Prime Mover, that's integrated by something the authors call Love.

This cosmology involves more than the geometry & topology of space, and encompasses the physics of personal and nonpersonal energies.

To help us conceive this cosmology, the authors point us to Philosophy, and to a "premier philosophic postulate" (105:1.3).

And from this perspective, the cosmos is seen to be a family affair, the story of how "I Am" becomes "We Are",

Quote:
"Let us make mortal man…" (see: 6:5.7, 7:4.4, 10:3.1)

UB 32:2.8 wrote:
"And then, when such a universe has been so completely organized and so repletely manned, does the Creator Son enter into the Father’s proposal to create mortal man in their divine image." (32:2.8)

The base of operations, the arena in which this happens, is something the authors call "space" -- a "bestowal of Paradise" (11:7.4).

And here we face mystery. The so-called "space" which the authors describe is very different to the old idea of a 3D Newtonian "now", or the simple 4D fabric "faintly glimpsed" by Einstein (195:7.5).

An even FAINTER glimpse is hinted at by Jesus in his "Discourse on Time and Space" that day in Carthage (130:7.0). See especially 130:7.6,7.

Given the essential role played by "space" in our Michael's work (creating a place IN that space for personalizing Adjusters), it's natural to wonder about ways to conceive that (nontime) bestowal of Paradise.

For fun, and to get the ball rolling, I've put a rough sketch of some ideas in this Google folder:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OjfCWvoiyZSbHVfcG4-juN4LLuLchFcX?usp=sharing

The 7.5 minute movie (Paradise_Space.mp4) steps through a simple script, showing the sort of text a future narrator might narrate. The various text-only slides are placeholders, in desperate need of a true Artist's artificial touch.

Clearly, any attempt to imagine how the I Am "makes it so" can only ever be crude speculation about a hint of an outline of suspected relationships. Nevertheless, fun to explore!

Contents:

Movie: Paradise_Space.mp4 (130 MB, 1080p)
PowerPoint file: Paradise_Space_PPT.pptx (60 MB)
Script: Paradise_Space_Text.pdf (0.5 MB)

Embedded animations:

Clip_1_SpaceResp.mp4 (10 MB)
Clip_2_Unfold_main.mp4 (38 MB)
Clip_3_Unfold_end.mp4 (6 MB)

Please, treat all this as just "thinking out loud", and DO feel free to ignore O:)

Nigel


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nnunn wrote:
And here we face mystery. The so-called "space" which the authors describe is very different to the old idea of a 3D Newtonian "now", or the simple 4D fabric "faintly glimpsed" by Einstein (195:7.5).

An even FAINTER glimpse is hinted at by Jesus in his "Discourse on Time and Space" that day in Carthage (130:7.0). See especially 130:7.6,7.
Nigel


That sounds very intriguing. I guarantee that I will not ignore or unthinkingly undervalue those ideas.

One thing that occurs to me is that so many of today's researchers in the fields of physics, cosmology and mathematics seem to confuse space, as an entity itself, with things it might contain.

I couldn't access the material though. Did the forum's website not embed the URL correctly?


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Riktare wrote:
I couldn't access the material though. Did the forum's website not embed the URL correctly?

Hi Riktare,

If you'd like to try again, here is the direct link to the Google folder:

"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OjfCWvoiyZSbHVfcG4-juN4LLuLchFcX?usp=sharing"

and here is a direct link to the mp4 movie:

"https://drive.google.com/file/d/16irUK6DdL6Jja6xAbBmxpfEAb-QrYBVm/view?usp=sharing"

Since this is a big file (130 MB), best to download, rather than try to open.

[PS]: which web browser and OS are you using? All links are working for me (Windows 11, Edge browser).

For interest, are the links to the UB refs working? For example, the following link should take you to Paper 130 section 7:

Test link: 130:7.0

If anyone else cannot see those links, please let me know which browser and OS combo's fail.

thanks!
Nigel


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Okay, thanks Nigel. I was able to download the files from Google Drive, except Clip 2 (which would load into my browser to watch but didn't want to complete the download operation - maybe an operational issue with Google's site as many their staff might be on vacation now?)

None of the video's played any sound. Is that the expectation now?

The Test link: 130:7.0 worked fine for me, but my Chrome browser recognized no other URL in your recent posts. I believe my PC is running the latest Windows 10 update. I generally regard browser plugins as security risks so none are installed.

Really intriguing material! I'll dig through it more thoroughly and reread the passages that are involved to try to understand it better.


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nnunn wrote:
Riktare wrote:
I couldn't access the material though. Did the forum's website not embed the URL correctly?

Hi Riktare,

If you'd like to try again, here is the direct link to the Google folder:

"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OjfCWvoiyZSbHVfcG4-juN4LLuLchFcX?usp=sharing"

and here is a direct link to the mp4 movie:

"https://drive.google.com/file/d/16irUK6DdL6Jja6xAbBmxpfEAb-QrYBVm/view?usp=sharing"

Since this is a big file (130 MB), best to download, rather than try to open.

[PS]: which web browser and OS are you using? All links are working for me (Windows 11, Edge browser).

For interest, are the links to the UB refs working? For example, the following link should take you to Paper 130 section 7:

Test link: 130:7.0

If anyone else cannot see those links, please let me know which browser and OS combo's fail.

thanks!
Nigel


Wow! Thanks so much Nigel for sharing these things and helping us understand more and more. All the links worked for me and I had no problem whatsoever in accessing and viewing. I am going to study these things for sure... the idea presented of Personal and Mathematical has me intrigued, I feel like a curtain has been pulled back on a completely new stage, a new vision of the universe. I am puzzled for sure and there is a lot to absorb but when you first mentioned the seven dimensions earlier in this thread I thought to myself "I hope he explains this in more detail" and sure enough you have. Thanks again!


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130:7.4 (1439.2)... The motion of time is only revealed in relation to something which does not move in space as a time phenomenon.

Isn't this stating, in somewhat disguised fashion, that to properly understand and account for the passage of time, an observer or measuring device needs to be in the same inertial frame of reference as the clock or object undergoing change?

Or is it rather that the observer or measuring device must be in the same inertial frame of reference as Paradise?


130:7.6 (1439.4)There are seven different conceptions of space as it is conditioned by time. Space is measured by time, not time by space.

Are those "seven different conceptions of space" the same or otherwise related to the "seven cosmic dimensions" mentioned soon afterward?


130:7.6 (1439.4)... The nearer consciousness approaches the awareness of seven cosmic dimensions, the more does the concept of potential space approach ultimacy.

Since the revelators don't specifically say what those 7 cosmic dimensions are, we apparently need to do some homework and employ some thought and reasoning. Is it possible that those 7 cosmic dimensions have some relation to the Solitary Messenger's discourse on personality and survival?


112:1.5 (1226.9)Personality has a perfected range of cosmic dimensional performance. The dimensions of finite personality are three, and they are roughly functional as follows:

1. Length represents direction and nature of progression—movement through space and according to time—evolution.
2. Vertical depth embraces the organismal drives and attitudes, the varying levels of self-realization and the general phenomenon of reaction to environment.
3. Breadth embraces the domain of co-ordination, association, and selfhood organization.


It seems that each of those could be interpreted to apply to non-personalized reality also. Number 1 would involve the position and trajectory of particles, forces and energy. Number 2 would involve momentum and gravity. Number 3 would take into account multi-body interactions.


112:1.9 (1226.13)The type of personality bestowed upon Urantia mortals has a potentiality of seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization. These dimensional phenomena are realizable as three on the finite level, three on the absonite level, and one on the absolute level. On subabsolute levels this seventh or totality dimension is experiencible as the fact of personality. This supreme dimension is an associable absolute and, while not infinite, is dimensionally potential for subinfinite penetration of the absolute.

112:1.10 (1226.14)The finite dimensions of personality have to do with cosmic length, depth, and breadth. Length denotes meaning; depth signifies value; breadth embraces insight—the capacity to experience unchallengeable consciousness of cosmic reality.

Could it be that the 3 dimensions of personality "performance" expand into 7 dimensions of personality "expression or realization" by means of acquirement or attainment? By that I mean that as a person develops at least some measure of finality of status or condition, the possibilities for further acquirement or attainment increase?

If that is the case, then the career of an ascender would seem to parallel what we are told about the emergence of the Supreme Being in terms of cosmic dimensional expression, realization and mastery in ways that we can eventually comprehend. The implication is that those 7 dimensions of self-expression or person-realization might apply to the Supreme Being also, though it might be great mistake to presume that they in any way limit the possibilities of the Supreme Being.

Of course, these are just thoughts, explorations or temporary proposals used merely for study purposes. It would be a grave mistake to give any of this the status of claims.


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nnunn wrote:
Riktare wrote:
I couldn't access the material though. Did the forum's website not embed the URL correctly?

Hi Riktare,

If you'd like to try again, here is the direct link to the Google folder:

"https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OjfCWvoiyZSbHVfcG4-juN4LLuLchFcX?usp=sharing"

and here is a direct link to the mp4 movie:

"https://drive.google.com/file/d/16irUK6DdL6Jja6xAbBmxpfEAb-QrYBVm/view?usp=sharing"

Since this is a big file (130 MB), best to download, rather than try to open.

[PS]: which web browser and OS are you using? All links are working for me (Windows 11, Edge browser).

For interest, are the links to the UB refs working? For example, the following link should take you to Paper 130 section 7:

Test link: 130:7.0

If anyone else cannot see those links, please let me know which browser and OS combo's fail.

thanks!
Nigel


I am watching and reading with utmost curiosity and similar questions like Riktare's pop up as I study.

We have Urantia time as a local reference, but:

Timeline - Standardized Time Conversions


• One Paradise-Havona day is just seven minutes, three and one-eighth seconds less than 1000 years of the leap-year calendar - (The Urantia Book, 14:1.5 )

• The standard day of the superuniverse of Orvonton is equal to almost 30 days of Urantia time, and the Orvonton year equals one hundred standard days. This Uversa year is twenty-two minutes short of three thousand days of Urantia time, about eight and one fifth of our years - (The Urantia Book, 15:7.2 )

• The standard day of the local universe of Nebadon is equal to 18 days and 6 hours of Urantia time, plus two and one-half minutes. The Nebadon year is equal to one hundred days of standard universe time, about five years of Urantia time - (The Urantia Book, 33:6.7 )

• 10,000 standard years is about 50,000 years of Urantia time. Three dekamillenniums is about 150,000 Urantia years - (The Urantia Book, 35:6.1 )

• The system day of Satania equals 3 days of Urantia time, less one hour, 4 minutes, and 15 seconds. The system year consists of one hundred Jerusem days. For every 100 Satania or Jerusem days there are about 300 earth days. Twenty-five thousand years of system time equals approximately 20 thousand years of Urantia time - (The Urantia Book, 46:1.2, 54:6.6 )

The Urantia Book uses A.D. 1934 as the base year for deciphering historic dates - (The Urantia Book, 46:1.2 )

We are, at least for "now" prisoners of time about to be set free.


26:3.2
The ascending pilgrims from the seven superuniverses pass through Havona in the opposite direction, entering by way of the pilot world of the seventh circuit and proceeding inward. There is no time limit set on the progress of the ascending creatures from world to world and from circuit to circuit, just as no fixed span of time is arbitrarily assigned to residence on the morontia worlds...


27:7.8
The first jubilee marked the mortal agreement with the Thought Adjuster when the purpose to survive was sealed; the second was the awakening in the morontia life; the third was the fusion with the Thought Adjuster; the fourth was the awakening in Havona; the fifth celebrated the finding of the Universal Father; and the sixth jubilee was the occasion of the Paradise awakening from the final transit slumber of time....
.


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A good study Pethuel!

That might lead to a resolution of the first 2 questions in my last post. It might be the situation that the possibilities for reckoning the passage of time cover a continuum. That is, one might use an entirely local inertial frame of reference where the measuring device is at rest with respect to the clock. But in that case, one must understand that such a measurement might not fit into a possibly more accurate or more "encompassing" view of the passage of time that would be had if one's measuring device was at rest with respect to Paradise-Havona (or at least less affected by motion through space with respect to Paradise as we see in the down stepping through the different superuniverse zones).

In any event, it seems that the revelators are telling us that there most definitely is a "preferred" frame of reference when performing physical calculations that involve time. That is something that Special Relativity does not allow and simply cannot account for. This might be well demonstrated and readily observable in the Sagnac Effect and the very common ring interferometers used by aircraft and other navigating vessels.


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