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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
What is "given"? And where is it "given" that potential "will be" realized? Not all potential is or will be realized or actualized...not real, ever, to anyone...ever.


I guess you are just not up to speed in understanding the difference between real potentials and those that are artificially contrived by imperfect creatures. The potentials that are invoked or involved in 118:1.10 are clearly those "real" potentials that have meaning and worth to God. Elsewhere in the revelation are clues or warnings against confusing contrived potentials with proper, real ones. Must I find those references for you?



Yes. You must indeed!!

After all, this is a classroom and study group for the learning, teaching, and sharing of a very specific text and technical manual. The UB says what it says and certainly does not say what it doesn't.

Specificity and accuracy depend upon a student's reliance upon the actual reference material cited...and not faulty memories and personal prejudices don't you think?

8)

118:1.10 (1296.2) On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter.

So...the quote above does NOT mean or say or even infer that God/Deity finds any meaning or value in unrealized potentials. God has an eternal perspective which recognizes all potentials which are and become realized and actualized in time. Those unrealized potentials in time remain unrealized in eternity and offer nothing to anyone at all.

The example proffered above clearly and quite distinctly makes this point. There are mortals and will be more who have not and do not and will not make the "eternal decision" which realized and actualizes potentials in time into eternal realities.

Ergo...not ALL potentials or, perhaps, even most potentials have meaning in eternity or to Deity. Only potentials realized in time can be eternalized and offer value and meaning to universe realities.

Or so I understand.

8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Jul 09, 2024 1:06 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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These beings are in no way connected with the mortal ascent to Havona. The vast host of the Paradise Transcendentalers have nothing whatever to do with the affairs of either Havona or the seven superuniverses, being concerned only with the superadministration of the affairs of the master universe.
`

So in the nether region of Paradise (basement?) we have prereality space potency controlled by the Unqualified Absolute, which "becomes active and primordial in response to the resistance afforded by the space presence of the Primary Eventuated Master Force Organizers" and becomes Segregata, which in turn emerges as puissant energy and gravity energy, the active ancestor of all universe matter, and both puissant energy and gravity energy are known as Ultimata. As these energies continue Paradiseward
Quote:
there is next encountered a pre-existent phase of energy which is characteristic of the central universe... This is the existential energy domain of the Conjoint Actor, functioning in behalf of the Paradise Trinity.
and these Havona energies are called Triata. And as we continue upward we find Tranosta which is the energy realm of the Transcendental absonite peoples that Riktare mentions in the references in Paper 31.


Is this little summary correct?

Once again quoting from Appendix VII:
§ 2 THE MATURATION OF POTENTIALS

Growth in the master universe is a subabsolute process; it is taking place on the finite level (in time and space) and on the absonite level (in transcended time and space). This means that something, or someone, has to operate on the potentials of the Absolutes in order to down-step them to the point where they become responsive to the actions of subabsolute beings functioning on subabsolute levels. Concerning this process, the following statements are made in the Papers:

(1262.10) 115:5.13 The Potential (the three Absolutes) never functions as such on subabsolute levels.

(136.4) 12:6.6 The presence-performances of the Absolutes and the activities of the Ultimate always precede the work of the time-space creators.

(137.3) 12:6.14 Within the master universe, the Ultimate is working out "the creative organization" of the Absolutes of Potentiality.

(1281.4) 117:3.2 The Supreme Being is the channel that carries the creative potential of the triodities to the finite level, and this is the source from which the superuniverses and their native beings are created.

(1261.3-4) 115:2.3-4 Experiential creation and evolution is the conversion of potentialities into actualities; and this equally applies to the potency of spirit, to space potency, and to mind potency.

(1298.7) 118:7.7 From the larger and superfinite perspective, creators really are "transformative creators."

We can now set forth our concept of the mechanism of experiential growth: The basic potentials are absolute, and they must somehow be reduced to subabsolute potentials before they can become serviceable to finite (and absonite) levels of activity. This work of downstepping absolute potentials is performed by the Supreme and the Ultimate. When they have done this work, then these modified and matured potentials become serviceable to the creators and the controllers of the time-space universes. In the larger sense, an act of creation is an act of transformation; it is the transformation of a "matured potential" into a new actual — some new thing or some new being.

As an illustration of this: We are informed (418.4) 38:1.1 that a local universe Creative Spirit usually creates seraphim ". . . in unit formation — 41,472 at a time . . ." As we visualize this episode, at one moment there are no seraphim present and the next moment, there they are — all 41,472 of them! But this unit of seraphim did not come from nothing or nowhere; they came (emerged) from something that was somewhere. The "something" was a matured potential, and the "somewhere" must have been the presence of the Supreme — the presence in which the matured potential was held in a state of suspense.

(In case this seems to be altogether simple and clear, it can be complicated just a little: The Infinite Spirit and the Master Spirits are, in some manner, involved in certain phases of this process of maturing potentials. (469.8) 42:2.8; (190.2,5-6) 16:4.8, 11-12] This is true concerning the maturation of physical force into emergent energy and then to the levels of universe power. And, if this is true of the maturation of the potentials of a physical nature, it may also be true concerning the maturation of potentials of a spiritual and a mindal nature.)


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fanofVan wrote:
Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
What is "given"? And where is it "given" that potential "will be" realized? Not all potential is or will be realized or actualized...not real, ever, to anyone...ever.


I guess you are just not up to speed in understanding the difference between real potentials and those that are artificially contrived by imperfect creatures. The potentials that are invoked or involved in 118:1.10 are clearly those "real" potentials that have meaning and worth to God. Elsewhere in the revelation are clues or warnings against confusing contrived potentials with proper, real ones. Must I find those references for you?



Yes. You must indeed!!

After all, this is a classroom and study group for the learning, teaching, and sharing of a very specific text and technical manual. The UB says what it says and certainly does not say what it doesn't.

Specificity and accuracy depend upon a student's reliance upon the actual reference material cited...and not faulty memories and personal prejudices don't you think?


8)

118:1.10 (1296.2) On the absolute and eternal level, potential reality is just as meaningful as actual reality. Only on the finite level and to time-bound creatures does there appear to be such a vast difference. To God, as absolute, an ascending mortal who has made the eternal decision is already a Paradise finaliter.

So...the quote above does NOT mean or say or even infer that God/Deity finds any meaning or value in unrealized potentials. God has an eternal perspective which recognizes all potentials which are and become realized and actualized in time. Those unrealized potentials in time remain unrealized in eternity and offer nothing to anyone at all.

The example proffered above clearly and quite distinctly makes this point. There are mortals and will be more who have not and do not and will not make the "eternal decision" which realized and actualizes potentials in time into eternal realities.

Ergo...not ALL potentials or, perhaps, even most potentials have meaning in eternity or to Deity. Only potentials realized in time can be eternalized and offer value and meaning to universe realities.

Or so I understand.

(from post above :idea: )

8)

Great discussion! So much to learn from Paper 118...


118:6.1 (1299.4)God is truly omnipotent, but he is not omnificent—he does not personally do all that is done. Omnipotence embraces the power-potential of the Almighty Supreme and the Supreme Being, but the volitional acts of God the Supreme are not the personal doings of God the Infinite.

118:6.2 (1299.5)To advocate the omnificence of primal Deity would be equal to disenfranchising well-nigh a million Creator Sons of Paradise, not to mention the innumerable hosts of various other orders of concurring creative assistants. There is but one uncaused Cause in the whole universe. All other causes are derivatives of this one First Great Source and Center. And none of this philosophy does any violence to the free-willness of the myriads of the children of Deity scattered through a vast universe.

118:6.3 (1299.6)Within a local frame, volition may appear to function as an uncaused cause, but it unfailingly exhibits inheritance factors which establish relationship with the unique, original, and absolute First Causes.

118:6.4 (1299.7)All volition is relative. In the originating sense, only the Father-I AM possesses finality of volition; in the absolute sense, only the Father, the Son, and the Spirit exhibit the prerogatives of volition unconditioned by time and unlimited by space. Mortal man is endowed with free will, the power of choice, and though such choosing is not absolute, nevertheless, it is relatively final on the finite level and concerning the destiny of the choosing personality.

118:6.5 (1300.1)Volition on any level short of the absolute encounters limitations which are constitutive in the very personality exercising the power of choice. Man cannot choose beyond the range of that which is choosable. He cannot, for instance, choose to be other than a human being except that he can elect to become more than a man; he can choose to embark upon the voyage of universe ascension, but this is because the human choice and the divine will happen to be coincident upon this point. And what a son desires and the Father wills will certainly come to pass.

118:6.6 (1300.2)In the mortal life, paths of differential conduct are continually opening and closing, and during the times when choice is possible the human personality is constantly deciding between these many courses of action. Temporal volition is linked to time, and it must await the passing of time to find opportunity for expression. Spiritual volition has begun to taste liberation from the fetters of time, having achieved partial escape from time sequence, and that is because spiritual volition is self-identifying with the will of God.

118:6.7 (1300.3)Volition, the act of choosing, must function within the universe frame which has actualized in response to higher and prior choosing. The entire range of human will is strictly finite-limited except in one particular: When man chooses to find God and to be like him, such a choice is superfinite; only eternity can disclose whether this choice is also superabsonite.

118:6.8 (1300.4)To recognize Deity omnipotence is to enjoy security in your experience of cosmic citizenship, to possess assurance of safety in the long journey to Paradise. But to accept the fallacy of omnificence is to embrace the colossal error of pantheism.

8)

Freewill choices and potential in time must be realized in time to become actualized in eternity.

8)

1261.3-4) 115:2.3-4 Experiential creation and evolution is the conversion of potentialities into actualities; and this equally applies to the potency of spirit, to space potency, and to mind potency.

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


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Bradly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
"So time viewed from and within time is linear and sequential. Time viewed from the eternity or pure spirit perspective is circular."

and then he pointed out that:
fanofVan wrote:
"Specificity and accuracy depend upon a student's reliance upon the actual reference material cited... "

With regard to "a linear sequence of events" vs. "circular simultaneity", what Jesus appears to be saying in his "Discourse on Time and Space" (as adapted and quoted in 130:7.5) is not so much that "time viewed from the eternity or pure spirit perspective IS circular", but rather that our (time dependent) concept of time will (increasingly) be replaced by a realization of "circular simultaneity",

"... in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events."

130:7.5 wrote:
"Animals do not sense time as does man, and even to man, because of his sectional and circumscribed view, time appears as a succession of events; but as man ascends, as he progresses inward, the enlarging view of this event procession is such that it is discerned more and more in its wholeness. That which formerly appeared as a succession of events then will be viewed as a whole and perfectly related cycle; in this way will circular simultaneity increasingly displace the onetime consciousness of the linear sequence of events." (130:7.5)

Recall that from a nontime point of view, that "nontime sequence of events" (11:2.11) unfolds in "seven cosmic dimensions" (130:7.6)! :biggrin:

Nigel


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Riktare wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
What is "given"? And where is it "given" that potential "will be" realized? Not all potential is or will be realized or actualized...not real, ever, to anyone...ever.


I guess you are just not up to speed in understanding the difference between real potentials and those that are artificially contrived by imperfect creatures. The potentials that are invoked or involved in 118:1.10 are clearly those "real" potentials that have meaning and worth to God. Elsewhere in the revelation are clues or warnings against confusing contrived potentials with proper, real ones. Must I find those references for you?


What are "artificially contrived potentials" exactly? Or generally?

You see how important references can be?

How is "real" potential differentiated from the "contrived" variety?

I have looked but found no references to "contrived potentials".

Aren't all possible outcomes of all choices based on all motives and intentions and priorities and experiential wisdom regarding strategies, tactics, and timing, and spiritization and insights by those making freewill choices and all sequential impacts "potentials"? Real potentials?

Each potential is a possible effect or result or outcome from all causes, right? Each potential has a different probability or likelihood of outcome.

Sorry I am not "up to speed" as you say. I look forward to your UB references to help me better understand the nature of potentials.

8)

More from Paper 118 regarding causes and effects. As I understand (or is it misunderstand? :lol: ), all possible outcomes (effects) from all possible choices by freewill personalities (causes) are real potentials with variable probability.

118:4.1 (1298.1)Many of the theologic difficulties and the metaphysical dilemmas of mortal man are due to man’s mislocation of Deity personality and consequent assignment of infinite and absolute attributes to subordinate Divinity and to evolutionary Deity. You must not forget that, while there is indeed a true First Cause, there are also a host of co-ordinate and subordinate causes, both associate and secondary causes.

118:4.2 (1298.2)The vital distinction between first causes and second causes is that first causes produce original effects which are free from inheritance of any factor derived from any antecedent causation. Secondary causes yield effects which invariably exhibit inheritance from other and preceding causation.

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


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pethuel wrote:
Quote:
These beings are in no way connected with the mortal ascent to Havona. The vast host of the Paradise Transcendentalers have nothing whatever to do with the affairs of either Havona or the seven superuniverses, being concerned only with the superadministration of the affairs of the master universe.
`

So in the nether region of Paradise (basement?) we have prereality space potency controlled by the Unqualified Absolute, which "becomes active and primordial in response to the resistance afforded by the space presence of the Primary Eventuated Master Force Organizers" and becomes Segregata, which in turn emerges as puissant energy and gravity energy, the active ancestor of all universe matter, and both puissant energy and gravity energy are known as Ultimata. As these energies continue Paradiseward
Quote:
there is next encountered a pre-existent phase of energy which is characteristic of the central universe... This is the existential energy domain of the Conjoint Actor, functioning in behalf of the Paradise Trinity.
and these Havona energies are called Triata. And as we continue upward we find Tranosta which is the energy realm of the Transcendental absonite peoples that Riktare mentions in the references in Paper 31.


Is this little summary correct?

Once again quoting from Appendix VII:
§ 2 THE MATURATION OF POTENTIALS

Growth in the master universe is a subabsolute process; it is taking place on the finite level (in time and space) and on the absonite level (in transcended time and space). This means that something, or someone, has to operate on the potentials of the Absolutes in order to down-step them to the point where they become responsive to the actions of subabsolute beings functioning on subabsolute levels. Concerning this process, the following statements are made in the Papers:

(1262.10) 115:5.13 The Potential (the three Absolutes) never functions as such on subabsolute levels.

(136.4) 12:6.6 The presence-performances of the Absolutes and the activities of the Ultimate always precede the work of the time-space creators.

(137.3) 12:6.14 Within the master universe, the Ultimate is working out "the creative organization" of the Absolutes of Potentiality.

(1281.4) 117:3.2 The Supreme Being is the channel that carries the creative potential of the triodities to the finite level, and this is the source from which the superuniverses and their native beings are created.

(1261.3-4) 115:2.3-4 Experiential creation and evolution is the conversion of potentialities into actualities; and this equally applies to the potency of spirit, to space potency, and to mind potency.

(1298.7) 118:7.7 From the larger and superfinite perspective, creators really are "transformative creators."

We can now set forth our concept of the mechanism of experiential growth: The basic potentials are absolute, and they must somehow be reduced to subabsolute potentials before they can become serviceable to finite (and absonite) levels of activity. This work of downstepping absolute potentials is performed by the Supreme and the Ultimate. When they have done this work, then these modified and matured potentials become serviceable to the creators and the controllers of the time-space universes. In the larger sense, an act of creation is an act of transformation; it is the transformation of a "matured potential" into a new actual — some new thing or some new being.

As an illustration of this: We are informed (418.4) 38:1.1 that a local universe Creative Spirit usually creates seraphim ". . . in unit formation — 41,472 at a time . . ." As we visualize this episode, at one moment there are no seraphim present and the next moment, there they are — all 41,472 of them! But this unit of seraphim did not come from nothing or nowhere; they came (emerged) from something that was somewhere. The "something" was a matured potential, and the "somewhere" must have been the presence of the Supreme — the presence in which the matured potential was held in a state of suspense.

(In case this seems to be altogether simple and clear, it can be complicated just a little: The Infinite Spirit and the Master Spirits are, in some manner, involved in certain phases of this process of maturing potentials. (469.8) 42:2.8; (190.2,5-6) 16:4.8, 11-12] This is true concerning the maturation of physical force into emergent energy and then to the levels of universe power. And, if this is true of the maturation of the potentials of a physical nature, it may also be true concerning the maturation of potentials of a spiritual and a mindal nature.)


8)

Interesting to consider common understanding and definitions of terms and their human origins. Potency and potential and omnipotent (also posse and possible!) share the same root word of "potent":

potent (adj.)

early 15c., "mighty, very powerful, possessed of inherent strength," from Latin potentem (nominative potens) "powerful," present participle of posse "be able, be powerful," a contraction of potis esse "be powerful, be master," from potis "powerful, able, capable; possible;" of persons, "better, preferable; chief, principal; strongest, foremost," from PIE root *poti- "powerful; lord."

Bradly :biggrin:

More on "Potential" from Paper 115:

115:3.8 (1262.5)3. The Potential. The union of the three Absolutes of potentiality, the Deity, Unqualified, and Universal Absolutes. This triodity of existential potentiality constitutes the potential revelation of the originality of the First Source and Center.

115:3.9 (1262.6) The interassociation of the Original, the Actual, and the Potential yields the tensions within infinity which result in the possibility for all universe growth; and growth is the nature of the Sevenfold, the Supreme, and the Ultimate.

115:3.10 (1262.7)In the association of the Deity, Universal, and Unqualified Absolutes, potentiality is absolute while actuality is emergent; in the association of the Second, Third, and Paradise Sources and Centers, actuality is absolute while potentiality is emergent; in the originality of the First Source and Center, we cannot say that either actuality or potentiality is either existent or emergent — the Father is.

115:3.11 (1262.8)From the time viewpoint, the Actual is that which was and is; the Potential is that which is becoming and will be; the Original is that which is. From the eternity viewpoint, the differences between the Original, the Actual, and the Potential are not thus apparent. These triune qualities are not so distinguished on Paradise-eternity levels. In eternity all is—only has all not yet been revealed in time and space.

115:3.12 (1262.9)From a creature’s viewpoint, actuality is substance, potentiality is capacity. Actuality exists centermost and expands therefrom into peripheral infinity; potentiality comes inward from the infinity periphery and converges at the center of all things. Originality is that which first causes and then balances the dual motions of the cycle of reality metamorphosis from potentials to actuals and the potentializing of existing actuals.

115:3.13 (1262.10)The three Absolutes of potentiality are operative on the purely eternal level of the cosmos, hence never function as such on subabsolute levels. On the descending levels of reality the triodity of potentiality is manifest with the Ultimate and upon the Supreme. The potential may fail to time-actualize with respect to a part on some subabsolute level, but never in the aggregate. The will of God does ultimately prevail, not always concerning the individual but invariably concerning the total.

8)

As I understand the above, what is potential in time does not always become manifested or realized or actualized in eternity. But eternal Potentials ("existential potentialities") are always, eventually, actualized and realized over time and in eternity. (?)

I love paradox! The UB is full of them. Real brain twisters. Jesus loved to teach with paradox too. A very Eastern tradition! The koan for example.

Consider that paradox is resolved by understanding its relationship to perspective. From time and from eternity offers paradoxical perspectives:

"potentiality is absolute while actuality is emergent"

"actuality is absolute while potentiality is emergent"

Both statements are true!! Depends on who's perspective is being described.

Fascinating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :idea: :!: :biggrin: 8)

_________________
"Live loyally today—grow—and tomorrow will attend to itself. The quickest way for a tadpole to become a frog is to live loyally each moment as a tadpole."


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what is potential in time does not always become manifested or realized or actualized in eternity. But eternal Potentials ("existential potentialities") are always, eventually, actualized and realized over time and in eternity. (


Moi: Does this non-actualized potential represent mortals who choose not to follow an eternal career?


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pethuel wrote:
Quote:
what is potential in time does not always become manifested or realized or actualized in eternity. But eternal Potentials ("existential potentialities") are always, eventually, actualized and realized over time and in eternity. (


Moi: Does this non-actualized potential represent mortals who choose not to follow an eternal career?


I think so. I think that all potentials in time are not all realized or actualized, except for the 7 Super Universes eventually being settled in Light and Life, and the eventual destiny/success of the Supreme, Ultimate, and Absolute.

There are endless potentials in time that do not and will not achieve realization/actualization. Mortals are eternalized/actualized by fusion with a God Fragment (Father, Son, or Spirit fragment).

I think eternal potentials are what we might call inevitabilities. Only Deity related potentials in time are inevitable. (?)

So...no matter how many potentials in time go unrealized, all eternal potentials are inevitably and eventually actualized.

8)

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Riktare wrote:

I guess you are just not up to speed in understanding the difference between real potentials and those that are artificially contrived by imperfect creatures. The potentials that are invoked or involved in 118:1.10 are clearly those "real" potentials that have meaning and worth to God. Elsewhere in the revelation are clues or warnings against confusing contrived potentials with proper, real ones. Must I find those references for you?


I don't think the fact and function and results of freewill personalities in time can be considered "artificial" or "contrived". That would indicate a manipulation of freewill and suggest a fatalism regarding both potential and outcome.

Light and Life is achieved (or hindered and delayed) in time by the freewill choices of ell personalities in time from the Creator Sons to us mortals. The Supreme grows in strength and power and function in time and over time by the very real results of the experience and expressions of truth, beauty, and goodness which realize potentials and generate new and greater potentials.

Perhaps freewill is "contrived"? But certainly not it's results, as exercised by the freewill personalities of the countless and growing children of time.

The potentials created in time by the evolutionary progress of the freewill children of time are very real indeed. Nothing "artificial" or "superficial" or irrelevant or unimportant about it.

For us tadpole mortals our very eternal being and survival hangs in the balance of potential until fusion is achieved. But even then and thereby is there more potentials created in our personal quest for spiritization and experiential wisdom.

The potentials of time are certainly valid, relevant, very real, and vitally important to God, the Supreme, and to each child of God in both time and eternity!

8)

2:2.5 (36.3)God’s primal perfection consists not in an assumed righteousness but rather in the inherent perfection of the goodness of his divine nature. He is final, complete, and perfect. There is no thing lacking in the beauty and perfection of his righteous character. And the whole scheme of living existences on the worlds of space is centered in the divine purpose of elevating all will creatures to the high destiny of the experience of sharing the Father’s Paradise perfection. God is neither self-centered nor self-contained; he never ceases to bestow himself upon all self-conscious creatures of the vast universe of universes.

2:2.6 (36.4)God is eternally and infinitely perfect, he cannot personally know imperfection as his own experience, but he does share the consciousness of all the experience of imperfectness of all the struggling creatures of the evolutionary universes of all the Paradise Creator Sons. The personal and liberating touch of the God of perfection overshadows the hearts and encircuits the natures of all those mortal creatures who have ascended to the universe level of moral discernment. In this manner, as well as through the contacts of the divine presence, the Universal Father actually participates in the experience with immaturity and imperfection in the evolving career of every moral being of the entire universe.

2:2.7 (36.5)Human limitations, potential evil, are not a part of the divine nature, but mortal experience with evil and all man’s relations thereto are most certainly a part of God’s ever-expanding self-realization in the children of time—creatures of moral responsibility who have been created or evolved by every Creator Son going out from Paradise.

8)

_________________
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